[Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Forrest
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[Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Forrest »

Discord account: Forrest#5032

Banning admin: Vincent

Ban type/duration (where you are banned from and for how long): No duration given, assuming permanent, Discord server ban

Ban reason: Quote from the DM I received from Vincent right before getting banned: "Alright, you've been given ample warning over your behavior and toxicity as of late. This is your notice of expulsion. Take the time to contemplate how you've been behaving before you try coming back."

Your side of the story: On 1/15/2021, around I think 6pm-ish EST, Grima and I were in VOIP chat with a couple others and talking. One of the other users mentioned that Grima was being harassed in main chat and when I inquired, he specified that Justin (JWhitt or whatever his name is at this point) was spamming Grima telling her to go to bed. At the time, Grima was telling us in VOIP that she was babysitting on request of her family, and thus didn't really have the chance to actually go to bed, so we were providing company and reprieve from the insanity in her house at the time essentially and I told Justin about the situation in question. Grima also joined in and posted a couple things telling him that yes, she was unable to sleep due to her insomnia and having obligations at the time anyway. Justin kept persisting despite being told to stop and it resulted in me making an admittedly off-color remark, calling him a dentbrain and that he should stop.

A bit of context for this: Justin and I have had a very bad relationship for the past 6+ months. The reason for this being that almost any time I would pitch ideas for the server, PRs, etc, or even when I would be talking in casual conversation, he would rear his head in to either belittle me, put me down, twist my words, try to make me look like an idiot, or just in general be a dick to me over it. I don't know what started it, whether it was me or him, and while one of us probably should've just went to the other to make ammends or whatever, it probably wouldn't matter anyway. Justin is someone who will repeatedly target me with actual toxicity, subtle or otherwise, and then if you call him out he'll use his own popularity to shelter himself.

Now with that being said, "ample warning over behavior and toxicity as of late" is absolute bullshit. The last time I ever got any sort of warning for toxicity in the Discord from an admin just so happens to be from Vincent back in October of 2019, a fucking year ago. This ban was nothing more than Justin and Vincent jumping the gun because of their own grudges against me, and I know I'm not the only one who sees and knows this, much less the only one who knows Justin is actually a toxic person in the discord. Yet despite all this, I will point out that this ban was applied to me by Vincent, who had 0 involvement in the context of said situation that resulted in the ban, and then many other players who will say arguably worse things regularly post-round or even casually (Looking at the person who spams racial slurs every round IC on main), will get off scot free.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Basically the ban was ridiculous and a gun-jump by two admins with a grudge. Vincent's got too much of a stick up his ass and Justin freely acts like an ass toward people, including me, because he can use his popularity to shelter himself from consequences. Somehow a warning I received a year and three months ago is enough to constitute a "Oh well you've been bad so we'll ban you", and then on top of this ya'll will cry that Hatter hasn't appealed his Discord ban despite him being an absolute fucking dickhead? Bruh, come on now.

EDIT: Also this isn't to say I haven't said my share of dumb/mean shit to people in the past, and I ain't excusing that, but I think a perma from the discord over calling one currently ex-admin a dentbrain, a very common insult on this server, a week after me calling him out for being a cunt and telling him to fuck himself, is pretty draconian, because I know that any prior incidents are only barely being considered in this decision.
Last edited by Forrest on Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Forrest
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Forrest »

Correction: a "retired admin" and a current admin who had 0 context or involvement.

MrJWhit
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by MrJWhit »

So, yes, I did not apply the ban, in fact, I would leave you alone as much as possible whenever you posted because when I said anything to you, you would be extremely upset at me at the slightest thing.
I figured, hey, leave you alone, you would stop being so upset at me, and then it will go back to being ok.

But no, you had a bone to pick at me, and if I did anything, you would fly off at the handle at me.

But, I was an admin, and, I've got thick skin I can brush off a lot of things. If you would like, we can go down memory lane for you saying shitty things at me, extremely unprovoked.
https://i.imgur.com/PdgNbYw.png

With the image in question:
https://i.imgur.com/OFtHecI.png

And further conversation:
https://i.imgur.com/J0j6lOb.png

https://i.imgur.com/mfEpSTB.png

Here are our DMs where I asked you to not advertise another server:
https://i.imgur.com/meOU7nV.png

Here we have a then-admin-current-trialmin saying you were on route to a QC ban then:
https://i.imgur.com/Bkcvej3.png
Then the next thing you responded with:
https://i.imgur.com/GZFzwfi.png

Here we have other admins telling you to calm down, and you responding poorly:
https://i.imgur.com/7EYH9WV.png

Here we have you being shitty to a random person:
https://i.imgur.com/T7LkRqR.png

Here you are being shitty to someone else:
https://i.imgur.com/GQdpgDN.png

Yet again someone complaining about you:
https://i.imgur.com/XrA2PYF.png

As you mentioned, there are a whole bunch of other stuff, but, someone else is 100% free to check my discord talkings at any time if I was at any point aggressive behavior from me, to you.

But, yeah, I didn't do anything to you while I was an admin, because it would be horrifically biased against you. There's no getting around that when I'm the banning admin. So, I let that sort of stuff slide against me. This was around a year ago when you decided I hated you, and then you left for another server. Which is fine, people can come and go as they please no harm no foul. My issue is saying "well it was X months ago so it shouldn't count", doesn't really factor in if you just weren't around to be shitty.

As for this specific incident, I still feel happy about asking a medical-grade insomniac when they're going to sleep. They hadn't slept for 5 days straight by that point (possibly with naps, but, they hadn't said anything), that's a straight up issue that needs to be handled. Different people handle their issues differently, and, I actually want to help my friends out. In this case, they need someone to remind them and help them along taking care of themselves. Gentle reminders, asking when they're planning on doing X, being reasonable on why something hasn't happened or taken care of. Just making sure your friends are drinking water and taking care of themselves, that sort of thing. I've done this before, and I'll do it until the end of time, I'm here to help people always have been, always will be.
How do I know it's not harassment? At no point did I get told to stop, from the person themselves, or that I was making them feel uncomfortable, or anything else like that. You bowling in saying "YOU'RE HARASSING THEM LEAVE THEM ALONE" is straight up not true when I keep an eye on those sorts of things, and will DM them if I think I'm going to far in a joke, or anything else.
Note, this is a few days after they said they had a nightmare because of the game you played, and you just... ignored that and then kept playing scary games. Something that goes directly against fucking helping someone with a medical issue. That's them asking for you to not do it again, and then a few days later, you're back to it. Fuck off with that shit.

The full ahelp for the record:
https://i.imgur.com/Bn6wyhg.png
The "damn, thanks" was because I was honestly expecting just a warning about that sort of thing, but they went ahead with the ban.

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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by MrJWhit »

I'm also 90% sure you're banned on the server anyway for being toxic, and that being mirrored on the discord is pretty fair for quality-control type bans anyway.

EDIT: Random aside, it's JWhit, it's always been that, and always will be. Not sure why you're randomly throwing shade at... my name?
Last edited by MrJWhit on Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Silicons
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Silicons »

i'd like for vincent to comment on this as the banning admin

initial thoughts are

- you (forest) are too hostile towards perceived provocations, when you know you've gotten in trouble for it in the past. no one expects you to take shit being hurled laying down, but you seem to be overreacting a *ton* as of late, especially when it is someone you do not get along with. someone can be rude, but fighting a small pan of cooking oil getting set on fire with a military grade flamethrower is pretty yikes, dude.

also, the person isn't banned from the game server.

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HarliChan
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by HarliChan »

Not that I have anything to do with any of these situations but I figure I'd give my piece as an outside admin with no knowledge examining the evidence and looking inwards.

Just from what I see in this thread alone, I wouldn't support an unban.

Forrest
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Forrest »

MrJWhit wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:01 pm
So, yes, I did not apply the ban, in fact, I would leave you alone as much as possible whenever you posted because when I said anything to you, you would be extremely upset at me at the slightest thing.
I figured, hey, leave you alone, you would stop being so upset at me, and then it will go back to being ok.

But no, you had a bone to pick at me, and if I did anything, you would fly off at the handle at me.

But, I was an admin, and, I've got thick skin I can brush off a lot of things. If you would like, we can go down memory lane for you saying shitty things at me, extremely unprovoked.
https://i.imgur.com/PdgNbYw.png

With the image in question:
https://i.imgur.com/OFtHecI.png

And further conversation:
https://i.imgur.com/J0j6lOb.png

https://i.imgur.com/mfEpSTB.png

Here are our DMs where I asked you to not advertise another server:
https://i.imgur.com/meOU7nV.png

Here we have a then-admin-current-trialmin saying you were on route to a QC ban then:
https://i.imgur.com/Bkcvej3.png
Then the next thing you responded with:
https://i.imgur.com/GZFzwfi.png

Here we have other admins telling you to calm down, and you responding poorly:
https://i.imgur.com/7EYH9WV.png

Here we have you being shitty to a random person:
https://i.imgur.com/T7LkRqR.png

Here you are being shitty to someone else:
https://i.imgur.com/GQdpgDN.png

Yet again someone complaining about you:
https://i.imgur.com/XrA2PYF.png

As you mentioned, there are a whole bunch of other stuff, but, someone else is 100% free to check my discord talkings at any time if I was at any point aggressive behavior from me, to you.

But, yeah, I didn't do anything to you while I was an admin, because it would be horrifically biased against you. There's no getting around that when I'm the banning admin. So, I let that sort of stuff slide against me. This was around a year ago when you decided I hated you, and then you left for another server. Which is fine, people can come and go as they please no harm no foul. My issue is saying "well it was X months ago so it shouldn't count", doesn't really factor in if you just weren't around to be shitty.

As for this specific incident, I still feel happy about asking a medical-grade insomniac when they're going to sleep. They hadn't slept for 5 days straight by that point (possibly with naps, but, they hadn't said anything), that's a straight up issue that needs to be handled. Different people handle their issues differently, and, I actually want to help my friends out. In this case, they need someone to remind them and help them along taking care of themselves. Gentle reminders, asking when they're planning on doing X, being reasonable on why something hasn't happened or taken care of. Just making sure your friends are drinking water and taking care of themselves, that sort of thing. I've done this before, and I'll do it until the end of time, I'm here to help people always have been, always will be.
How do I know it's not harassment? At no point did I get told to stop, from the person themselves, or that I was making them feel uncomfortable, or anything else like that. You bowling in saying "YOU'RE HARASSING THEM LEAVE THEM ALONE" is straight up not true when I keep an eye on those sorts of things, and will DM them if I think I'm going to far in a joke, or anything else.
Note, this is a few days after they said they had a nightmare because of the game you played, and you just... ignored that and then kept playing scary games. Something that goes directly against fucking helping someone with a medical issue. That's them asking for you to not do it again, and then a few days later, you're back to it. Fuck off with that shit.

The full ahelp for the record:
https://i.imgur.com/Bn6wyhg.png
The "damn, thanks" was because I was honestly expecting just a warning about that sort of thing, but they went ahead with the ban.
A bunch of screenshots taken completely out of context, some of these regarding me being shitty to "random people" being bullshit and you know it. Ana and I had a lot of fucking beef with each other because of their actions in and out of the game toward me during most of my time playing on Citadel, and Gabby and I had similar issues as well. Not to mention the fact that you're saying this is bad, but will say nothing about the dozens of people who will be the exact same way toward others. The problem only arises when I do it to you specifically, and again: almost all these are taken without any of their prior context that spans over multiple months, which mind you over half of those screencaps are from what, almost a half a year ago now? I'd love to present evidence against you to prove my point, but I'm not some psychopath who screencaps every single little thing people say that I don't like to use against them later, that just turns you into That Guy who nobody will talk to because they're walking on eggshells with you.

I made my reasons for not liking you very clear, and even on that note I will agree with what Kevinz said that I do have a tendency of over-escalating in verbal conflicts with some people, but to that I say: "Ok, so by this logic most people on the discord should be banned". I got told by a friend last night that people are beginning to spread lies about me saying transphobic shit, and how apparently that is the reason for the ban, but is anything being done about that? Probably fucking not. You defended Julio, Nameko, and many others who while they didn't outright get angry at people were constantly passive aggressive shit-flingers because of their perception of everyone being lower than them due to shallow reasons, so I don't really give a damn what you wanna say against me at this point because I know you're a hypocrite, Justin.

While we're at it, a previous admin complaint made by, I believe, Keron resulted in Kevinz saying that while admins shouldn't be held to any ridiculous "professionalism" standards they should at least be somewhat courteous (paraphrasing on there, but you get the idea), and I understand that most people would want players to follow the same rules, but enforcing that standard on everyone is stupid and would result in most people never ahelping shit anyway (not to say they already do, but the point still stands), and a bit of sarcasm or even mild passive-aggressive comments after getting told a perceived problem won't be dealt with should not result in "Ah yes, this is toxicity, ban him".

Also hey, if we're gonna bring shit up unrelated to the issue between me and Justin, how about I bring up how ya'll got an admin who was encouraging people in the server to take HRT on a fucking whim and acting like a god damn groomer in the memes channel while another admin was present and did nothing despite voicing disagreements with it? At the time, that person was a trial-admin, but now they're a full one, and it only took about a week for that to happen?

Forrest
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Forrest »

MrJWhit wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:04 pm
I'm also 90% sure you're banned on the server anyway for being toxic, and that being mirrored on the discord is pretty fair for quality-control type bans anyway.

EDIT: Random aside, it's JWhit, it's always been that, and always will be. Not sure why you're randomly throwing shade at... my name?
>throwing shade at... my name?

Now who's the one overreacting to perceived insults

Forrest
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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Forrest »

Silicons wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:07 pm
i'd like for vincent to comment on this as the banning admin

initial thoughts are

- you (forest) are too hostile towards perceived provocations, when you know you've gotten in trouble for it in the past. no one expects you to take shit being hurled laying down, but you seem to be overreacting a *ton* as of late, especially when it is someone you do not get along with. someone can be rude, but fighting a small pan of cooking oil getting set on fire with a military grade flamethrower is pretty yikes, dude.

also, the person isn't banned from the game server.
As for this one, yes you're right about me taking shit too far sometimes, but I can't think of any actual recent examples outside of my outburst toward Justin a couple weeks ago where I just spilled out why I dislike him so much. The examples Justin posted are for the most part lacking a lot of context as I said in my previous reply. Also I dunno how to reply to multiple posts at once, so I'm doing this one at a time.

EDIT: I will say however that with my life generally improving lately, I will be able to keep to any promises of trying to not let my emotions get to me and result in any outbursts. I'm not gonna treat Justin like a friend or anything, but I'll resist any temptation to call him out on anything

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Re: [Vincent/JWhitt] Forrest#5032 - Discord - "Toxicity"

Post by Vincent Airin »

Alright, some simple facts; while I've personally contacted you myself with warnings via dm at the time you claim, you've been regularly told to cut the poor behavior out many times through the past four months.
On top of that you act like I've ever bothered to interact with you enough to have a grudge and that I acted alone on this. I gave all staff a chance to weigh in with not a single person vouching for you or your behavior.
Even then I waited until there was a 2/3rds majority from heads for or against you before giving the boot.
Call me a captain stick up the ass all you want, but when I'm getting responses of "about time. Do it." Or even "go with god" then you need to do as I said and do some self reflection.

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