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[Snowdragon01]

There is a mini rant here and a strong opinion. If you are not able to discuss this without resorting to insults please do not post (I say this because every forum has those people.) This topic is blue because honestly white hurts my eyes with this background.

Recently I was banned from the server but I disagree with it entirely and still do.

During a round (secret round?) I stole the captains ID to unlock some crates for science and maybe even possibly be the acting captain until another head arrived. Sevnn didn't like it and said the sec officer should have it instead of me (which if they did is kinda against the server rules as well but whatever.) I also sold it to centcom as a point that no I don't agree with your ruling.

I'm honestly thinking about suggesting a rule change if anything. I agree that the captains ID shouldn't be stolen for no reason (Greytiding/additional access for no reason) but when there is a reason why not just allow it? Sure I could've bought some emitters, broke into lavalands, burned a crate, brought it back up, wait 7 minutes for 4 crates to be broken into or it could've been more convenient to just unlock it and be done.
The sad thing is I'm sure the previous captain would've done it for me seeing how they decided to give me firing pins from the RD's locker, additional access for just asking if there was botanist and the amount of times they came into RD, talking wanting things that I couldn't make yet and just generally trying to help research in any way possible.

If someone has a reason why not let them? If someone wants to be acting captain why not let them? No reason not to if there are no active heads. If it's someone from TG that just wants to grief the furry server/take it for no reason then I could understand a punishment. Ease of life though? Nope not allowed. People want job access? Screw all of you should've joined as a head. Know of an easy way to make something not a pain in the ass? Sorry but thats bannable.

I would expect this to be enforced in the heavy RP server but this one is just wew. Your allowed to know every job on the station but yet this is where the line is drawn. It literally did not make the game worse for anyone else (No the sec officer didn't have the right to secure it ,unless I miessed that rule, Their job is to make sure nobody breaks into the bridge and/or steals it but other than that they are bound to the smae rules as I am since they are not a head.)



It literally hurt nobody and if anything it could've made the round more interesting to have an acting captain. Did another head ask for it and I refused? No.Did it hamper any kind of story telling? No. Any other heads on the station that I could've informed? No. The only mistake was not joining in as a RD or getting promoted to one to get past this rule.


To actually punish for something like this is just why? Whats your point. The experience wasn't ruined for anyone since literally nobody but the antags if they even cared had the right to go into there.

[Kenzie]

you shouldn't appeal

i don't know why you think qol trumps all, that's not a valid argument for allowing this. on /tg/ people make attempts on the spare pretty much every round without fail, usually <5 minutes and it's absolute cancer even IF they don't act like greytiding shitbags, which they often do. i really feel like this is a "i banned pls change" more than anything else to be honest, because the instance where someone steals a bunch of the captain's stuff and then behaves perfectly is an edge case relative to the much more common instance of them stealing a bunch of the captain's stuff and then being a huge PITA/liability the rest of the round.

[Tekoro]

We can't close an eye on some rulebreaking just because they behaved well while they broke the rules.
Like we punished Joe n°123 for breaking into the captain's quarters to steal the spare, you should also be punished. Doesn't matter what you do with it, it's logical. If you steal something in real life, it won't matter what you did with it. You're still meeting punishment for it.

[Snowdragon01]

We can't close an eye on some rulebreaking just because they behaved well while they broke the rules.
Like we punished Joe n°123 for breaking into the captain's quarters to steal the spare, you should also be punished. Doesn't matter what you do with it, it's logical. If you steal something in real life, it won't matter what you did with it. You're still meeting punishment for it.

I would disagree there and say that it should be punishable in game and only by admins if its used in a away that negatively affects another player, is greifing or breaks another rule. Through years of being on the internet I've found that people seem to have the most difficult time understanding rules can be changed. I have some serious examples backed up by some facts and common sense. on why it should be.


None of you have really disproved anything stated above. Metagaming and knowing every job is fine but this is where we draw the line for RP?



Lets actually look to see what could happen if this rule was changed.

Situations stealing the caps ID is allowed in the following situations.

• No active heads of staff are located on the station and nobody is able to 
• Emergency situations
• Someone wants to become acting captain and there is no loud protest from the crew after announced.

Situations its not allowed

• Just to have it for no IC reason
• To break another rule/Do someone else's job
• Examples of this can be only looting the card to loot armory with it (At least with no real immediate deadly threat) and/or entering staffed departments and doing their jobs ect.

In the situation of a head of staff rejoining you are to ask if they want the card back and the acting captain position. If they say yes then you must. If it is the captain the is arriving or suddenly becomes active again you are no longer allowed to have the card and must return it. 

What would become of this

Pros

• Allows other players take on the responsibility of acting captain until another head of staff returns and is active
• More Ic possibilities such as doing the HoP's job (since there is none) and helping people get the jobs and access they want
• Easily getting access into an understaffed department (No heads of staff or engineers)

Cons

• more rules to learn/ accidentally break
• you might once or twice get an admin help of someone refusing to return it.

Final note
The same could not be said about other high value items such Captains/HoS/Wardens guns, Nuke core, Nuclear auth disk (On extended), Sliver of SM crystal, Medal of captincy, Secret documents. These items do not help anyone but your self (if even) and there is no reason to have them without permission. There is literally no real downside to this change.

Kenzie

you shouldn't appeal

i don't know why you think qol trumps all, that's not a valid argument for allowing this. on /tg/ people make attempts on the spare pretty much every round without fail, usually <5 minutes and it's absolute cancer even IF they don't act like greytiding shitbags, which they often do. i really feel like this is a "i banned pls change" more than anything else to be honest, because the instance where someone steals a bunch of the captain's stuff and then behaves perfectly is an edge case relative to the much more common instance of them stealing a bunch of the captain's stuff and then being a huge PITA/liability the rest of the round.

This is not a case where " I was banned pls changed." This rule itself I find extremely stupid and doesn't serve to help anyone. It doesn't even help RP. I would not be posting this topic if I if I didn't care about the server or made a mistake. I will admit I have made mistakes in the past but I will also admit moderation has made mistakes as well. I would say this benefits other people than just me and thats the final nail of that argument until you can disprove that.
I do not argue small points on the internet or insignificant things mainly because of whats happening now. Even a simple comment is can end up in a uphill battle with many different people.

If anything it was more of a case where an admin was like "Rules are rules and even though you didn't really affect anything negatively its still a rule so ban."


Final notes
I was hoping for more of a response from the community and not the staff.
Now that time has passed I do think posting a ban appeal solves nothing and would rather post a rule change request.
Now I have done my job, I have made good arguments backed up by some facts. Now it is your turn moderation team.

[Kenzie]

i still really think you are looking at this from the perspective of "here is one time i broke a really clear cut rule and it didn't ruin the round so why did i get banned better remove the rule!" rather than the numerous other rounds where people seize acting captainship wrongfully and then refuse to ever surrender it, which is much more common. hilariously, you yourself in this very instance threw such a fit at being told you weren't allowed to do this that you tried to destroy the id, and yet you expect us to believe that people will just instantly surrender the assumed acting captain role to the next head of staff to join? please.

[Evil_Sarevok]

As far as I see it, I got slapped for IC requesting a Lawyer return a spare for going through the armoury with it to steal equipment from security.

This sounds like the same issue I had and should be dealt with in the same place, in character, not by admins. Heck security seem to sit on their hands most days because people'll just shout an admin to do security's job, apparently.

Maybe security should have pulled a finger out their arse and slapped you for it IC, and requested that you escort them back and forth first, to remove/return it?

Course the lawyer wasn't punished when he took it and kept it for the entire round without being acting captain with no emergency until a head of staff arrived.

I wouldnt appeal it, seems talking about it gets you very little in return in terms of constructive dialogue if my case is anything to go off of, or you get banned longer for fun.

[areebur]

I think both of you are overreacting.

1) both of you need to remember that rule 3 is a thing. And because you decided to take an action against what the banning admin said (trying to sell the captains ID) in a fit of anger, (which has been brought up, but wasn't explained yet so you could go back to how 'don't steal the spare unless it's in good taste' should be added as a rule, which doesn't make this too good.

2) that lawyer asked to secure the disk and the ID, and that they did. And saying that they were stealing sec equipment is an overstatement since it was just a suit, that they were returning before you decided to bolt them in the armory. And even so, they returned the ID when the RD went into the brig and asked for it, not 'keeping it for the rest of the round', like you said.

[Tekoro]

Here we go.

I would disagree there and say that it should be punishable in game and only by admins if its used in a away that negatively affects another player, is greifing or breaks another rule. Through years of being on the internet I've found that people seem to have the most difficult time understanding rules can be changed. I have some serious examples backed up by some facts and common sense. on why it should be.

Rules can be changed, it takes time, effort, and it doesn't happen in the blink of an eye. If you have suggestions, please DO make them because help is always appreciated when it comes to administration.

None of you have really disproved anything stated above. Metagaming and knowing every job is fine but this is where we draw the line for RP?
Lets actually look to see what could happen if this rule was changed.


Situations stealing the caps ID is allowed in the following situations.

• No active heads of staff are located on the station and nobody is able to 
• Emergency situations
• Someone wants to become acting captain and there is no loud protest from the crew after announced.

Situations its not allowed

• Just to have it for no IC reason
• To break another rule/Do someone else's job
• Examples of this can be only looting the card to loot armory with it (At least with no real immediate deadly threat) and/or entering staffed departments and doing their jobs ect.

In the situation of a head of staff rejoining you are to ask if they want the card back and the acting captain position. If they say yes then you must. If it is the captain the is arriving or suddenly becomes active again you are no longer allowed to have the card and must return it. 

Alright so, here's our current policy and ruleset inherent to this scenario.

1. Don’t steal ID’s or upgrade your access for no reason.
2. Don’t steal items or equipment you don’t have a valid reason to take.
3. Don’t break into areas you’re not supposed to be in forno reason.
4. Do not attempt to gain every power or enhancement that you can solely in an attempt to become as powerful as you can.

In an emergency situation (aliens over-taking the station, nuke-ops invading, etc.) some of these rules can be ignored to a point.

That's rule 9, don't powergame.

• Acceptable examples of powergaming are:
• Taking a weapon you found abandoned when there are rumors of a killer on the station.
• Taking the dead captain’s ID when there are confirmed nuke-ops on board.
• Stealing the medkits from medical for a triage area when the station is overrun with aliens.
•        Unacceptable examples of powergaming are:

• Stealing the captain’s spare ID because there are no heads and you want to be captain.
• Taking as many weapons and powers as possible because there “might be an antagonist” on the station and “you want to be ready for them”.
• Breaking into chemistry to make yourself a bunch of chemicals because “there’s no chemist around”.

Powergaming in SS13 is: stealing access, breaking and entering for no reason, taking things you don’t need or could possibly have a want for, doing the job of someone else when they are fully capable of doing it theirself, or giving yourself powers/abilities for the sole purpose of becoming as powerful as possible.

Alright. Our ruleset, I agree myself, isn't very clear as in it gives examples  instead of a general definition that covers every single possible scenario. That creates a various amount of problems, like this one, where it's essentially up to the admin to decide. An admin could've easily just ignored what you did because you had a valid reason in their mind, etc. It becomes a problem because it begins to be completely up to the staffer and it's judgement, but it's fine I guess, as long as the admin has good judgement, which they should, since they're admin. 
So we're gonna investigate this situation within our ruleset, which again, isn't very clear and sometimes gives an headache.

• Stealing the captain’s spare ID because there are no heads and you want to be captain.

Well, that's one thing that was broken, and you might say "Why not let just let him be acting, what's the problem?", because we can't trust every single person in a 20pop extended to get the spare and act like a saint. If we start acting like just wanting to be acting is enough proof to let them be acting, then we'd have a fuckton of greyshits deciding that the clown is now the HoS and the mime is the CE making walls everywhere. 
If you sign up as cargo tech, assistant, you can't pretend you have the skill to be a captain. It requires a certain degree of skill, which a CT or an Assistant don't have. We're still MRP, or we're trying to remain at that level at least, so when you say "If someone can do every job and not be metagaming, why is this not allowed?", that's wrong. You can do a job outside of your own, while you stick on your job mainly, but you can't go around being know-all, because if we remain to have a certain degree of roleplay, your character won't be a science genious, an engineering expert and a mining master if it joins as Assistant. But then again, the only thing written in the rules that talks about this, is in the guidelines.
Guidelines say that it's fine to:

Know how to do a job outside of your own profession (you should still stick to your job).

Which if you want to argue about it, yes, that means that you can possibly do every single job on the station if nobody's already working on them, so it completely remains to admin judgement, which I'll admit, it's kind of a flaw, because then you have these kind of situations where we don't have rules to back ourselves up because there's not a definition clearly written that covers this scenario. But even if there was, there's gonna be for sure another scenario like this that won't be covered, and we're back at the start.

What would become of this


Pros

• Allows other players take on the responsibility of acting captain until another head of staff returns and is active
• More Ic possibilities such as doing the HoP's job (since there is none) and helping people get the jobs and access they want
• Easily getting access into an understaffed department (No heads of staff or engineers)

Cons

• more rules to learn/ accidentally break
• you might once or twice get an admin help of someone refusing to return it.

My personal opinion, and it's personal, is that this would just cause a lot of more subtle grief. Anyone would be able to act captain and fuck over the round because "there was no head on."
[Again, just because two people act like saints we can't overlook the 30 that act like griefers and assholes]
The times I've seen non-head crew take on the HoP's job, I've seen all the assistants, the clown and everyone else go around with full-access, so no thanks.
You can already easily get access into a department without access, it's laughably easy and if you give a good reason the admins, if they use their good judgement and faith, will overlook it.

More rules to learn isn't really a cons. We already have a lot of rules and they could be easily modified to cover more scenarios with some work.
Someone refusing to return it, just like you did, becomes a problem, because instead of it being an IC issue like you want it to be, IT STOPS BEING AN IC ISSUE. If we're being called in and we see it fit to be taken action upon, it's not IC anymore. So it deconstructs your whole argument about rules that would help this be a more IC environment for this scenario.

This is not a case where " I was banned pls changed." This rule itself I find extremely stupid and doesn't serve to help anyone. It doesn't even help RP. I would not be posting this topic if I if I didn't care about the server or made a mistake. I will admit I have made mistakes in the past but I will also admit moderation has made mistakes as well. I would say this benefits other people than just me and thats the final nail of that argument until you can disprove that.

I do not argue small points on the internet or insignificant things mainly because of whats happening now. Even a simple comment is can end up in a uphill battle with many different people.

Which rule do you find stupid, though? Or do you mean Sevn's judgement specifically? 

As for my personal response to you, you shouldn't've done what you did. You stole the spare to open crates, which was fine, but then you decided to keep it, which is not fine, then when told to return it you sent it to CENTCOMM on a anger fit against Sevn, which is NOT FINE.

Here are my two cents.

[Snowdragon01]

This is not a post dedicated to proving the above reply wrong. 

 Interesting. The point you've made that gets me to look at your side more is the ""more subtle grief." point. Also you don't seem to disregarding what I say as if it means nothing.

 I'm more of not wanting to push this situation further since it would probably just cause more of a headache to server staff to deal with this. This is a game and were all here for fun and i'm not here to cause more work for other people.
While I disagree to the statement "just because someone is in a role thats not command staff they can't lead" I do realize your points saying that most people if this was real wouldn't steal it and that dealing with whatever the assistant captain does can be a headache.

 Personally if someone wanted to be captain I don't see why not but they're still bound by the same standards captains are. Meaning giving out all access it a bwoink just like a real captain.
But I could be quiet about this and how I feel. I mean I'm not going to hate all staff over one disagreement or stop playing in general. No do I need to attempt to force how I feel onto others in this situation. 
The way I see it is that the rules don't make the RP but rather the people there. The only reason real reasons for rules to exist is to prevent greifers but in doing so it limits how much freedom there is.

Question
 Stealing it in general is against the rules or would it be ok to take it, unlock crates and return it? I'm asking you since you said this part is the confusing part left to be decided by admins.


As for selling the card to centcom...
 Yup I did it. Was not in a good mood at all at the time and the bwoink didn't help. How the staff member responded during my discord Pm's to him also kinda made me feel like shit like my opinion didn't matter and that I was a child to him. (Basically he didn't give a shit, he was right and will continue to think that way.) Which is honestly why I find it hard to talk to any staff on this game. Disagree with what i'm saying or don't understand? Shut the fuck up I get the last word and i'm always right because i'm the admin. Want to talk to me about it? To bad that could only increase your sentence.
 I've never ever seen an admin set up like this in my entire life. Every server has "Be respectful to the staff and admins do get the final decision." Here it's "The admin gets the last word and is able to dictate whatever you do whenever they want with whatever attitude."
Here it's like you did something wrong and I have my mind hellbent into thinking you did something wrong. Good luck explaining since I'm allowed to have an attitude and drag the discussion wherever I want at any time not allowing you to explain. Not only that but I can be as rude as possible and get the last say. Say anything minorly aggressive and the conversation ends there and your banned.
Then there is the fact mad people don't always do what they want (What a surprise) and that not listening to an admin even though you are causing nobody any harm will get them to think your questioning their power and get them banned.

 This is probably more of the reason that I sold the card to centcom. The way the server command already burns me off since I know any reason they can and they will jump on someone. It almost feels like a lot of situations sometimes the admins are looking for people to ban. Follow the rules is more important than people having fun in the game and questioning the all mighty admin gets you banned.

 It doesn't help you that previous admin behavior kinda enforces this belief. Not even on just me but on other community members as well. Blackmajor is one community member example. The amount of things I hear him getting notes about or being once permabanned over is in all honesty retarded. I'm not saying everything he  has been noted for was wrong but the things I heard were just retarded. 
 Then there are situations where I'm not allowed to explain myself (Literally as in they wont let me explain the entire situation.) Then there are some that make lies just because they dont want to deal with a situation and some go power hungry as in "Your questioning my desicion? hahahahah fuck you goodbye."
 Sometimes I get treated like i'm a child here but in all honesty the "Oh my gosh, he did not listen what I told him to. Screw jail for a few rounds ban him naw! NAw plz!" is childish.

 All of this being said I do not think all of you are bad people or all of you are bad staff. I also know that 1 bad admin help doesn't mean they are bad admins in general. But do know this I am not the only one who has complained about the staff here. I tell what happened exactly how it happened (Or as far memory allows me to) to to other people and they're like "The fuck? Thats shitty" Some are people who don't even play on this server regularly or ever. So when I tell the story as close to as happened as possible other people agree with my side always but to the admins, they are right you can't discuss it otherwise.


(Spoiler - in situations like this wouldn't it be better to resolve the situation by just I don't know taking the card out of the players inventory and giving it to the individual for some reason is worthy to have it. If you came more chill at me, something like [Just an example] "Naw man you can't be stealing cards like that to unlock crates" then teleported it out of my inventory that would've been a better scenerio. Not "Hey man why do you have that card? Your not supposed to have it! Thats not a good enough reason! So give it to this annoying ass cop on the radio that for some reason is allowed to have it over you and I wont explain why." While i'm in my head thinking what the fuck thats against server rules and space law.[Although this is a shit engine and wouldn't be surprised if thats beyond the coding.] )

[Snowdragon01]

But anyways yeah I'm chill about this situation now (even if it bothers me slightly.) Anything I said about staff in my last reply is my opinion that cant be changed by arguing only by experience. Dont like it? Get over it. Arguing wont change anything here.