[Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

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superHB
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[Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by superHB »

This is a currently ongoing round, but I don't care anymore and I was told to go make a complaint here by an admin.

A Sec officer, named Glav grabs the nulrod and goes ham on cultists.

This is textbook powergaming and taking items from another department that doesn't belong to them. Which in fact, the later rule, I got for a WINTER COAT. So if this Secoff can take the nullrod without getting a note, please remove my winter coat note.

It doesn't matter that a chaplain isn't on, go get what you need from cargo (holy water). People should NOT be grabbing the nullrod just because the job isn't there.

It's counted as an IC issue.

So for future reference if I'm any antag it's just A-OK for me to go grab some maxcaps and plasma cans and bomb/flood because they exist therefor I should be able to use it right?

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by Silicons »

"Powergaming in SS13 is acquiring items, powers, increased levels of access, and other assets for the sake accruing as much power as possible, with little or no other motive. It is also a style of play in which one min/maxes their character or environment to complete an objective, to the exclusion of other elements such as roleplay and the mutual entertainment of other players."

If we started punishing security for securing the null rod for its anti magic we might as well start punishing cultists for taking it first to prevent that.
Powergaming implies there's no reason to be grabbing the amount of power/gear said person is getting. An active cult is an acceptable excuse to be grabbing the nullrod with no active chaplain.

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by Silicons »

Also please quote your wintercoat note here for reference.

Furthermore, re: maxcaps/plasma cans as antagonist, no, the rules for unnecessary destruction/murderbone without a good reason are still in place.
I'd compare getting a nullrod to fight a cult as a security officer with no one else using it and no chaplain to use it with someone powergaming xenobiology or syringe gunning security as an antagonist. There's plenty of people who may complain and whine that it is excessive, but at the end of the day, it is not. Maxcapping the station and plasma flooding is not comparable to such.

If people feel the nullrod is too powerful, they should complain to the maintainers about it. The times you would get in trouble for taking the nullrod is preemptively taking it as not a chaplain just because there isn't one (without an active threat that necessitates it), or stealing/forcefully taking it from the chaplain even with a need outside of a true emergency where the chaplain isn't doing their job. In this case, quite literally no one had first dibs on it, and so security took it to suit their needs instead of letting it sit in an unsecured room.

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Putnam
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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by Putnam »

The chaplain is an important part of game progression for the clockwork cult game mode. They are important due to their ability to make holy water and their null rod. As there is no chaplain, holy water is only attainable with cargo (as you point out), and the null rod must either sit there unused OR get taken by either the cult or those fighting them. The cult was called out, so security took the rod, because there was no chaplain. This is pretty standard.
superHB wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:44 pm
So for future reference if I'm any antag it's just A-OK for me to go grab some maxcaps and plasma cans and bomb/flood because they exist therefor I should be able to use it right?
The reason they were allowed to take the null rod is because the game mode is balanced around it. It's not "because it exists", don't misrepresent this, it doesn't particularly help your case.

This isn't like someone breaking in and getting bomb materials, this is like an assistant being let into the armory during a nuke ops round. If you haven't noticed, we absolutely allow this.

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by superHB »

So first I would like to apologize. My initial post was in-part written in salt. It was a very frustrating situation.
Silicons wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:51 pm
"Powergaming in SS13 is acquiring items, powers, increased levels of access, and other assets for the sake accruing as much power as possible, with little or no other motive. It is also a style of play in which one min/maxes their character or environment to complete an objective, to the exclusion of other elements such as roleplay and the mutual entertainment of other players."

If we started punishing security for securing the null rod for its anti magic we might as well start punishing cultists for taking it first to prevent that.
Powergaming implies there's no reason to be grabbing the amount of power/gear said person is getting. An active cult is an acceptable excuse to be grabbing the nullrod with no active chaplain.
So there's no absolute punishment that, if every round I was a cultist, just bumrushed the nullrod(s) first and threw them into the grinder? That's a pretty boring solution isn't it? Doesn't that promote a metagame type play rather then a "live in the moment" type for the round? That's what makes rounds stale - playing them to a T the exact same way every time.
Silicons wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:54 pm
Also please quote your wintercoat note here for reference.

Furthermore, re: maxcaps/plasma cans as antagonist, no, the rules for unnecessary destruction/murderbone without a good reason are still in place.
I'd compare getting a nullrod to fight a cult as a security officer with no one else using it and no chaplain to use it with someone powergaming xenobiology or syringe gunning security as an antagonist. There's plenty of people who may complain and whine that it is excessive, but at the end of the day, it is not. Maxcapping the station and plasma flooding is not comparable to such.

If people feel the nullrod is too powerful, they should complain to the maintainers about it. The times you would get in trouble for taking the nullrod is preemptively taking it as not a chaplain just because there isn't one (without an active threat that necessitates it), or stealing/forcefully taking it from the chaplain even with a need outside of a true emergency where the chaplain isn't doing their job. In this case, quite literally no one had first dibs on it, and so security took it to suit their needs instead of letting it sit in an unsecured room.
I'd argue Xenobiology is up there too with being able to spawn limitless monsters with little to no consequence to the user.

I don't think the nullrod is too powerful, I just think that someone that's not the Chaplain should not have access to it at all if there's no Chaplain.

So to add to what was said, the player Glav said that they did not get the nullrod from the Chaplains office but they got the SECONDARY nullrod on delta from "maint." Which, is behind a wall in engineering and not exactly maint. Isn't that metagaming? OOCly knowing where an item is based on the map?

My note is for: "Warned for taking items belonging to a head of staff from their locker without permission from the relevant head of staff."

HOWEVER the rules that were quoted was this: 6.2 Don't steal items from another department for your own convenience or to inconvenience them, especially important items for that department.

And this is honestly a textbook case of that. Yes it was from "maint" but they're still taking an item that doesn't belong to them for their own convenience. Just to get that secure valid of the round, rather then using the tools they have at their own department.
Putnam wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:14 pm
The chaplain is an important part of game progression for the clockwork cult game mode. They are important due to their ability to make holy water and their null rod. As there is no chaplain, holy water is only attainable with cargo (as you point out), and the null rod must either sit there unused OR get taken by either the cult or those fighting them. The cult was called out, so security took the rod, because there was no chaplain. This is pretty standard.
superHB wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:44 pm
So for future reference if I'm any antag it's just A-OK for me to go grab some maxcaps and plasma cans and bomb/flood because they exist therefor I should be able to use it right?
The reason they were allowed to take the null rod is because the game mode is balanced around it. It's not "because it exists", don't misrepresent this, it doesn't particularly help your case.

This isn't like someone breaking in and getting bomb materials, this is like an assistant being let into the armory during a nuke ops round. If you haven't noticed, we absolutely allow this.
I'd like to add that the cults aren't balanced around the nullrod. Yes the nullrod has antimagic but the modes aren't souly balanced around it. If anything they're always in a consistent war about being balanced around Security, that has more than enough tools to deal with them WITHOUT the nullrod.

Here's a couple of examples where it's OK and not ok.

Chaplain going to sec and just stealing a baton with a MAYBE cult threat - bad

Security giving Chaplain a baton because of a confirmed cult threat - good.

Security stealing/metagaming the chaplains/maint nullrod because someone shouted cult - bad.

A Chaplain giving security his nullrod because there's a confirmed cult threat - good.

To summarize:

I just think it's exceptionally annoying that I get the air of that antags should have to walk on eggshells depending on what is done or to eat a note or to have to play to a strict boring meta (IE getting rid of the nullrod(s) each round even if a chaplain doesn't exist) to make the mode stale.

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moltoretardo
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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by moltoretardo »

I mean, nullrod doesn't make the officer invulnerable. It's exactly the same as if there was a chaplain. Use regular weapons against him and you're good to go.

The nullrod makes it so it's harder to snowball (which happens very often) from the easy stun you can pull on anyone. Throwing the nullrod in the trash roundstart also means anyone can see that the nullrod is a goner and raise suspicions toward a cult which can blow your cover and is a big risk if you're not going loud. I don't think taking the nullrod when a cult is called falls under rule breaking. What would be bad is if you'd break in as a sec roundstart with no proof of a cult.
:woozy_face:

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by Silicons »

- you cannot use the items from own department argument when the antagonists are not doing the same. can't have your cake and eat it too. we aren't forcing security to not use what's on the map to their advantage when the opposing team will do it at a whim.

- knowing where items are on the map isn't breaking the metagaming rules, that's not enforceable. whine at coders for including it, if it's there it'll be used.

- if you immediately steal the null rod as cultist good for you tbh that's the same as cult bumrushing chaplain, it's a style of play, most people wouldn't do it but if you want to play that way i guess you're playing that way

- the winter coat thing was more greytiding/theft for no reason, not powergaming. there's nothing powergamey about the cosmic enhanced coat that you can't get elsewhere. has nothing to do with this. plus, emphasis on stealing for no reason rather than a legitimate need.

antags don't have to walk on eggshells. we're not requiring much of conversion antags other than don't instantly jump to maxcaps and plasma floods instead of attempting to convert. this isn't a herculean requirement. figure out how to play antags around this or go convince maintainers to nerf these methods that are placed on the map. we're not here to enforce arbitrary restrictions on what areas of you map you can or can not know about from ooc code/game asset knowledge and we're not here to tell security they can't reasonably use another department's items which directly counter a dangerous antagonist when they have every ic reason to do so when the cult/antagonist can at a whim. we're not going to tell security to use only their security gear in a conversion round and tie their hands behind their back when the antags are not limited to such things. yeah so what if antags can't bomb/plasma flood at a whim sec can't either i don't see the point here.

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by Silicons »

also just for the record the coat thing was pretty silly and shouldn't have a bearing on anything. yet another example of questionable enforcement because every admin has a different definition of what greytiding is.

it's really not powergaming and i'm not sure who insinuated it is.

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by superHB »

moltoretardo wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:30 am
I mean, nullrod doesn't make the officer invulnerable. It's exactly the same as if there was a chaplain. Use regular weapons against him and you're good to go.

The nullrod makes it so it's harder to snowball (which happens very often) from the easy stun you can pull on anyone. Throwing the nullrod in the trash roundstart also means anyone can see that the nullrod is a goner and raise suspicions toward a cult which can blow your cover and is a big risk if you're not going loud. I don't think taking the nullrod when a cult is called falls under rule breaking. What would be bad is if you'd break in as a sec roundstart with no proof of a cult.
See my issue here is that if someone goes looking for the nullrod on an unconfirmed cult round and then sees it's gone, would they be metagaming? Kind of like just doing a "maint sweep" at the start of a round as Sec. It falls in a weird in-between line of metagame and not. The other issue is, unless you're bloodcult, good luck trying to take down an officer with a melee weapon when they have the funny stun stick.
we aren't forcing security to not use what's on the map to their advantage when the opposing team will do it at a whim.
That's fair, but I'm in the camp that no one should be using anything outside of their existing toolkit. Which is why I honestly thought it was considered powergaming to do so.
knowing where items are on the map isn't breaking the metagaming rules, that's not enforceable. whine at coders for including it, if it's there it'll be used.
I've heard mixed answers on this, which is why I was lead to believe it's metagaming.
if you immediately steal the null rod as cultist good for you tbh that's the same as cult bumrushing chaplain, it's a style of play, most people wouldn't do it but if you want to play that way i guess you're playing that way
I just find this kind of play terribly boring/annoying. Like Sec has more than enough tools to not need antimagic.
- the winter coat thing was more greytiding/theft for no reason, not powergaming. there's nothing powergamey about the cosmic enhanced coat that you can't get elsewhere. has nothing to do with this. plus, emphasis on stealing for no reason rather than a legitimate need.
The comparison here was the legitimate need. Sec doesn't NEED the nullrod. Disablers/batons are more than enough to deal with clock cult which is really under powered on station. And it's about to become worse too with Kindle getting a longer cast time.
antags don't have to walk on eggshells. we're not requiring much of conversion antags other than don't instantly jump to maxcaps and plasma floods instead of attempting to convert. this isn't a herculean requirement. figure out how to play antags around this or go convince maintainers to nerf these methods that are placed on the map. we're not here to enforce arbitrary restrictions on what areas of you map you can or can not know about from ooc code/game asset knowledge and we're not here to tell security they can't reasonably use another department's items which directly counter a dangerous antagonist when they have every ic reason to do so when the cult/antagonist can at a whim. we're not going to tell security to use only their security gear in a conversion round and tie their hands behind their back when the antags are not limited to such things. yeah so what if antags can't bomb/plasma flood at a whim sec can't either i don't see the point here.
It feels like there's just some sort of internal discourse and disagreements on who gets a note for antag related things. Like the whole deal with Nameko/Julio as abductors when they were just playing their role. So that's why I have a feeling of needing to walk on eggshells, especially if an RP admin decides to get involved on main for one reason or another. Overall I just feel slighted that because of this and it was just such an early stomp/roll which makes the round very boring, rather than entertaining.

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Re: [Main][All the admins on][Player Glav][24075]

Post by Redtail »

Goig to move this to resolved since it isn't going anywhre and it looks pretty much like it was discussed thoroughly here. Ultimately, there's a significant difference in "stealing a coat because it looks nice" and "stealing a null rod because it's anti-magic and it's my job to deal with threats".

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