[Decision Reached] Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

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kevinz000
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[Decision Reached] Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by kevinz000 »

My heart can't take another rapid fire discord argument when a far better way of discussion that allows for drawn out and recorded posts so here goes:

Note: I'm trying to phrase these in an open ended way, instead of doing my usual wall of text about game design thing when I argue about these things.
There's two PRs open.
One adds pepper rounds to .45 pistols, expanding the ballistic tactic selection/whatnot.
One moves the .45 pistols to the armory, requiring people to get them from the warden/HoS instead of being able to get them from the vendors. It adds a multi mode hitscan/projectile taser to make up for the loss of .45s, but those are fully energy.

So before I decide on the PRs:

Why should security have .45 pistols, or really any other ballistics by default for officers at roundstart? Whether flash, rubber, or pepper rounds, what are we gaining by having roundstart nonlethal ballistics when energy options that are fully nonlethal exists? Why are roundstart nonlethal ballistics good for the server? Why, and how do they make sense for the environment?

On the other side of argument, why shouldn't security have roundstart nonlethal ballistics? Why shouldn't we give them the variety and choice, and force them to use the inherently safe options? Why are roundstart nonlethal ballistics bad for the server? Why, and how don't they make sense for the environment?

And I expect a lot of people to come in swinging with their emotions because they love security, hate security, never play security, or are a security main. I ask you to not, and to think in terms of why it's good for the server's balance and gameplay and roleplay, because that's what's going to make your case here.

Edit: Added "Why do or why don't they make sense for the roleplaying environment" to the questions.

Decision reached: http://citadel-station.net/forum/viewto ... 8118#p8118

Cameron Lancaster
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Cameron Lancaster »

Roundstart nonlethal ballistics are required because a roundstart race that's heavily, heavily resistant to tasers exists in Vox. It also functions as an alternative (in the form of pepperballs or flash rounds, in addition to rubber bullets) as a reliable alternative to tasers, which players can be passively resistant to to lesser degrees than Vox without warning or indication.

The only way I would support the removal of nonlethal ballistics is if Vox were nerfed or Security got nonconductivity-bypassing disablers to compliment their laser weaponry, as that is the primary function they serve now.

Kerbal22
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Kerbal22 »

it is also important to note that the PR which removes the ballistics from the sec vendor also obsoletes the stun revolver/taser by adding the 'variable velocity taser'.

There are five in total, with that PR's changes, and they can be acquired from cargo.

As for what Cameron said, there is also people who have major resists to conductive in the form of custom species. There is currently no way to resist pepperball ammunition, short of proper protection.

Curt
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Curt »

Security main here.
I almost never use the rubber .45s because I find the normal-ass taser, and the other tools you get from the locker without having to ask the warden or use the vendomat, more than sufficient to do Sec things. I mean this in all cases, not just in the no-antags space of CitRP.
I do not support roundstart rubber bullets available, because they're less effective than the wholly nonlethal tasers and more often than not lead to the shot moron having broken ribs which just prolongs everything related to an arrest. I've also seen people meme together four pistols into one using circuits/science tools so that they have a weapon that fires four bullets a second simultaneously, guaranteeing some tasty Excessive Force. However, I do agree that an alternative is required to the taser, due to Major NonConductive being a thing.
The replacement of roundstart .45 rubberbullet pistols with .45 pepperball pistols seems like a good solution; the people who have a hardon for ballistics can have their guns, but won't be breaking everyone's bones with their 'nonlethal' weapons. And you can just get cargo to print rubbers for you, or get them from the armory, if you really need them.
I do not support the 'multivelocity taser' idea. They A: seem like straight buffs to both tasers and Stun revolvers, and B: don't add anything new aside from being a buffed taser/stunvolver.

Huivn1
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Huivn1 »

Taser, stun baton, flash and pepperspray are all a quick stun, and give you more than enough time to cuff the suspect. Also believe it or not, nonlethal ballistics are still capable of killing someone if no one can treat them. Internal bleeding, broken ribs leading to heart and lung damage which goes up the more they move around. I've seen a lot of cases where "nonlethal" ammo almost killed someone. Frankly, I question why it's in the game at all other than to make the detective into a noir reference and to give the bartender a shotgun. And even then, stun shotgun shells are a thing for the bartender.
Last edited by Huivn1 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kerbal22
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Kerbal22 »

It is important to note, Huivn1, that the nonlethal pepperball ammo, a key subject of discussion, is completely non-lethal, doing no damage aside from agony damage. You can't kill someone with them.

https://github.com/Citadel-Station-13/C ... P/pull/841 - Ballistics Removal PR
https://github.com/Citadel-Station-13/C ... P/pull/832 - Pepperball PR

Huivn1
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Huivn1 »

Pepperballs seem kinda silly to me, Karbal22. It's just an objectively better pepperspray. Just give the detective a stun revolver, and the bartender stun shotgun shells. Done. No need for new, possibly overpowered content.

Thingy 404
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Thingy 404 »

I don't see why security would need any kind of ballistics. They are protecting a work environment. Mostly from their own workers, since you know. Antags are extra rare. In my opinion, ballistics should be moved and kept in the armory, and the warden/HoS should actually process the LIGHT paperwork needed to give a ballistics of any sort to a security officer. The reason being a threat to the station, a vox being present (they're also very rare), or somehow justified shenanigans. I don't think I know what these pepper rounds are, but if they are what I think they are, the glasses the vox usually wear will nullify them, won't they?

Instead of using ballistics for vox, disablers should work fine. I'm no expert in Vox's or disablers, but I think they function differently. If not, just ignore my ignorant ass on this one.

Oh, and, if you're struggling to find a nice nonlethal ballistic ammo type, just make a sticky shocker / electrode round type. You know, a bullet with some nice pent up electricity in them, good for sheriff sec players.

Cameron Lancaster
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Cameron Lancaster »

Huivn1 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:07 am
Pepperballs seem kinda silly to me, Karbal22. It's just an objectively better pepperspray. Just give the detective a stun revolver, and the bartender stun shotgun shells. Done. No need for new, possibly overpowered content.
This is no longer the case. Originally, they literally called the pepperspray proc on impact. They now cause agony damage instead, which means it takes multiple shots to take someone down.

Kerbal22
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Re: Security: Roundstart Nonlethal Ballistics

Post by Kerbal22 »

These aren't for the bartender. These aren't for the detective. They're for security at large, particularly those with a leaning towards using ballistics. This is so they do not have to use less-lethal ammo. And if you think they're not a real thing? Think again, bucko.

Vox are also, a lot less rare than you think. They're becoming a fairly regular sight on station. Vox wear masks, not glasses generally. And often, there isn't a warden or HoS, or anyone who can issue ID changes. Maybe if things were different in that regard, i would see your point. I do not see your point.

Disablers work the exact same as tasers. No difference.

All stun rounds work the same way, too, through agony damage. Pepperballs do less, but will weaken a target.

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