Citadel Community

Discord ID of complaint against: Werewolf#4010 [Nick: Based Anal]

Your BYOND name: Weblure

Your Discord ID: Feril#6555

Date of issue: between Sept. 22, 2019 11:00PM PST and Sept. 23, 2019 12:30AM PST

Reason for complaint:
Invited drama by stating he'd banned someone and over-exaggerated what he'd banned them for, pinged multiple people to perpetuate an argument after it was dropped, and turned people against me by falsely accusing me of defending child pornography. Repeatedly mentioned that he hates furries. Generally behaved very immaturely for someone representing the server.

Clarification edit since people can't read:
This is NOT an appeal against someone being banned for posting that inappropriate meme. That was never the topic of debate and nobody is trying to defend that person. This is a complaint against a moderator for stirring unrest by announcing that child pornography was posted in the server and then publicly accusing me of defending CP in an attempt at getting other people to attack me, just because he didn't want to accept criticism.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.


Full report:

A little before 11PM, Werewolf stated that they'd banned someone in the #memes channel. A user asked what'd happened, to which Werewolf replied, "someone posted CP so it was reported and the user banned". Without context, people naturally assumed that actual photography containing CP was posted in the channel. More questions and discussion ensued, to which Werewolf gave no effort into elaborating or providing any context, eventually implying that it wasn't rare for people to post real-life CP in the server.

Directly following his message, someone asked if he was referring to a particular comic panel, which confused some of us. Eventually, it was made evident through context that the picture in question was simply a very crude MSpaint edit of cartoon-style comic drawing, which is obviously much less shocking than real-life CP, which he'd misled people into assuming.

Another user and I pointed this out to him and he defended himself by referring to some misunderstood legal technicality, which wasn't really relevant. I told him that there's still a huge difference between a cartoon drawing and real-life photography. After clarifying that I wasn't questioning their decision to ban the person that posted it and suggesting that they shouldn't say something that shocking without any context, I opted to drop the argument, since that channel wasn't the appropriate place for it.

Five minutes later, he pinged both me and the other person who was involved in the conversation, saying "it was CP though lmaooooo". I refuted and then asked him if he really wanted to continue the conversation in that channel. The other person he pinged refused to continue the discussion out of fear of being banned. From then on, we exchanged arguments back and forth, with him repeatedly bringing up a legal technically (which he still misunderstood and still wasn't relevant to our initial complaint) as his defense.

Throughout the argument, he continued to twist the topic of debate to make it look like I was defending depictions of child pornography. This spurred other people, who have not been following the conversation, to jump to his defense. He later directly accused me of defending child pornography. Not long after, I realized the argument wasn't going to get anywhere with him continually baiting more people to fight me; after multiple people expressed being uncomfortable with the topic and asked us to stop, I dropped the argument and logged everything that was said for this report.

Logs:
Edit: The image that he'd banned someone over was a MSpaint-style edit of this comic:
https://pbfcomics.com/wp-content/upload ... plorer.png
You can find the edited version on Google images by searching "perry bible fellowship cave explorer". Clearly not even remotely close to being as terrible as what he'd misled everyone into thinking it was. Regardless, whether or not that person should've been banned was never brought into question. We simply didn't appreciate him announcing something as shocking as "someone posted CP", which was a gross over-exaggeration. Saying something like that, and then implying it isn't uncommon, only serves to make people uncomfortable and worried that they might come across something on the server that's much more terrible than what was actually posted.

There's a lot to go through since I didn't want to crop anything out.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

Staff in question:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

imagine being so disconnected from reality you get mad at staff because they banned someone that posted something pedophillic on a platform that specifically states in it's rules that anything remotely resembling such is forbidden

go outside man


It's in discord's own conduct rules and the citadel discord (and game) server's rules. Your own personal preference on wanting to diddle cartoon children has no bearing here. Would you like to put down your shovel now or after this gets denied by admins?

edit: i haven't had my multi-vitamin today

Lmao someone actually classed that meme as cp? Holy shit that's a bad joke right

areebur wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:37 am

imagine being so disconnected from reality you get mad at staff because they banned someone that posted something pedophillic on a platform that specifically states in it's rules that anything remotely resembling such is forbidden

go outside man


It's in discord's own conduct rules and the citadel discord (and game) server's rules. Your own personal preference on wanting to diddle cartoon children has no bearing here. Would you like to put down your shovel now or after this gets denied by admins?

edit: i haven't had my multi-vitamin today

Imagine have 0 reading comprehension. Nobody objected to the guy being banned -- that was never once the topic of debate. Reread the whole thing and try again.

Unless you're just pulling the same shit that Werewolf did by pretending the topic is about defending someone posting CP, when it's clearly about a moderator behaving immaturely and stirring drama by over-exaggerating, and then fucking accusing me of defending child porn in some sick attempt at getting people to attack me, all to cover his ass because he didn't want to admit that maybe, just maybe, it's probably not a good idea to announce that someone posted actual fucking child porn when everyone knows that's a huge fucking over-exaggeration with no purpose but to stir up drama and unrest.

If that's the case, then nice bait, very cool.

Edit: The fact that you'd write something like this as a trail admin is... very concerning.

Right now that I'm actually home. I can understand deleting the image, I personally wouldn't because I can see it for the obviously off color humor it is, but I don't think it was inherently wrong to do so. Having read the screencaps I absolutely see the basis for a complaint based on the way werewolf acted, and the way they continued to argue about it in a way that pretty clearly breaks the don't be a dick/be respectful rule. I have personal former experience with Werewolf constantly toeing that line in arguments about topics they don't like, or arguments where their ideas aren't the ones being used. I've tried to be pretty neutral and talked to them in achat about this exact type of behavior but this time and previous times I get the same 3 excuses, "I'm aussie/I'm memeing/I'm not taking it seriously." All 3 present various issues anywhere from, "Since I'm Irish does that mean I too can be a cunt?" "If I'm kidding/not taking it seriously can I post things against the rules?" Obviously the answer to all those questions is no. Most may want to discredit all I'm saying here because I, too, have trouble with toeing that line but if anything it should be taken more seriously as a result. If I can look at this and say "yeah it's an issue" that really says something. Admins/staff are meant to be something that a player can look at, and go, "yeah I should act like them," and Werewolf is often not at all in that line. I suffer the same issue and am working to improve it, so take all of this with a hint of "I know this well because I do it too."

Think Nicc covered my thoughts pretty well. I think Werewolf's behavior here was absolutely unacceptable for an admin to do. Bragging about a ban while not giving the correct details then baiting further arguing is something I wouldnt accept from a player. Much less another admin.

Weblure wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:30 pm

publicly accusing me of defending CP in an attempt at getting other people to attack me, just because he didn't want to accept criticism.

areebur wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:37 am

Your own personal preference on wanting to diddle cartoon children has no bearing here.

I've never seen anyone back up their opponent's argument quite as convincingly as this.

Weblure wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:30 pm

The other person he pinged refused to continue the discussion out of fear of being banned.

areebur wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:37 am

Would you like to put down your shovel now or after this gets denied by admins?

Though this one's a damn close second.

Now, as soon as I saw this post up, I felt I should post here, but I held off for as long as I could, because I didn't want my post to become yet another piece of the peanut gallery.
And while Nik's contribution here certainly covers most of what needs to be said, I still feel there are some points that need to be touched upon here.

First however:

Nik707 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:31 am

I've tried to be pretty neutral and talked to them in achat about this exact type of behavior but this time and previous times I get the same 3 excuses, "I'm aussie/I'm memeing/I'm not taking it seriously." All 3 present various issues anywhere from, "Since I'm Irish does that mean I too can be a cunt?" "If I'm kidding/not taking it seriously can I post things against the rules?" Obviously the answer to all those questions is no.

All of my previous interactions with Werewolf have ended in exactly the same way here, no matter how hard I attempt to kind or agreeable, any kind of disagreement or request for better behaviour from him is immediately shot down with nonsensical excuses like "Imagine taking this so seriously."
Given the numerous times I myself, and Nik (as per his post) have attempted to talk to Werewolf about these issues (and even just assuming we're the only two to have ever attempted to do so - something I doubt is true), then I feel this thread at the very bottom line is going to have to be a major wakeup call to Werewolf that this kind of blasé attitude towards administration is not acceptable.

While writing the start of this post up, the full scale of this issue struck me. By acting the way he did, Werewolf has goaded other uses into harassing Feril from the mere accusation that he was defending the image.
I feel as though, had any regular user stirred up this level of drama against someone, they'd probably have eaten a discord server ban already.

I think (or at least did think prior to this) that colloquially CP is pretty widely understood to mean actual photos or videos of actual children - the type of thing that gets Discord servers and lifeweb forums nuked. Not the kind of shit you joke about, especially as staff. Though this image was not that, it was still probably against Discord's ToS as far as I understand it so deleting it was the right or at least safe thing to do, but I'm aware that's not exactly the issue here.

As far as the actual complaint here, I have to agree with Nik's take on this, it's pretty poor form from an admin and I think there's a certain level of professionalism and respect towards other players that's expected of us as staff, even towards people being banned. Both of you should've taken your discussion to DMs if you wanted to continue it as soon as someone else asked you to - that a non-staff member had to nudge a staff member towards following the Discord rules is disheartening to see.

From what context I can gather it's my opinion that the behaviour is completely unprofessional. Werewolf has recently seemingly been quite easily irritated and this only adds to my concerns regarding their behaviour. Sectoid and Hazel seem to relay what I'm getting across quite nicely, and I'd support the both of them in this.

I read through everything at least three times, and made sure to go over every picture as best I could in this scenario. Now let's start off by throwing aside the whole ordeal with whether it was "Truly CP or not" as this is not going to be apart of my argument in the slightest, I'll be talking about Werewolf's behavior in this.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

Starting off with the very first initial picture, immidiately something is wrong here and that's the fact Wolf even decided to mention that they just banned someone. From personal experience bans are not public unless the person being banned decides to mention it, or said person was underage. Granted Wolf didn't state who was banned, they still should not take it so lightly and even give anyone else a chance to know that they were, especially since said person could have been founded out as "Oh so 'such-and-such' just got banned?" Stating you've just banned someone like that is a bit unprofessional and only sparks a match that could be a burning flame.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

These three just bring me great disappointment, instead of trying to calm a situation down you meme? There's numerous other times within' the conversation you do the same thing, but these three spoke it all to me and honestly, this is the reason admins end up getting a bad rep, because they just show little professionalism and care for actual issues that either they, or someone else has caused. Copy pasting "admin man bad" because someone is trying to discuss something, three times for that matter. (They as in admins in general, not Wolf, however that was shown within' this conversation here by them.)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

Now back to what I said earlier about people possibly being able to find out who it was that posted it? While this is not my main point, it can be quite misleading as a crude child cartoon doesn't equal to someone posting live tape of a man sexually assaulting a child. Not saying it wasn't bannable, but Wolf did decide to mention that someone was banned for CP, said person could have been found out, and possible attacked for something that in reality was not as harsh as depicted, in the end Wolf should never have said a word about anyone getting banned and this would not have been and issue. Second point is where they state, "Also I don't need to give context at all outside of administration matters." Well, if it was an administrative matter please tell me why it was mentioned in the first place? This is hypocritical, to mention something so drastic as someone being banned for CP, then to give zero context about the situation. Either nothing should have said at all, or clarification should have been given to the situation, preferably the former.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

Another example of the unprofessionalism in this situation, being in a furry server and claiming numerous times they hate furries, joke or not, this was not the time, nor place to start saying things like that, why would we have an admin that is not okay with furries, this just makes people feel uncomfortable and possibly cold to ever asking Wolf for anything. Meanwhile, "mfw I cant ban child porn" and the very colorful amount of times :omegalul: has been used, this shows again, zero professionalism or care in a situation. No one said it wasn't bannable, all that was wanted was context on a situation, or again better yet, it not having been mentioned in the first place.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

a perfect time to end the discussion and drop it, though it was not taken and instead were further pinged and messaged about the situation. I have a hard time coming to terms of why, why keep going? Ah yes, the third picture, "So tempting." My disappointment is immeasurable at this point in time.

Personal Experience
Since the day Wolf became an admin I've noticed harsh, unprofessionalism, and before they were even a full admin (Trial Admin) there was a situation with them regarding how they handed a situation, and just recently they have been talked down a few times because they get heated and start throwing insults and petty comments instead of asking one of us to handle the situation. I try to keep things professional here and may not be the most perfect when it comes to discussion with other admins, but when it comes to the playerbase, the sole reason we have adminship in the first place, we must keep calm and a level-head. This has not been shown recently, or in my eyes, since the day they were brought up.

For the longest time, they have shown unprofessionalism, a rough attitude towards those that disagree with them, and a lack of respect for other players. I will be blunt with saying I can't go on with supporting Werewolf being an admin anymore, however this is not even close to being my decision, but with a history that seems to have only gotten worse, my point will stand as is.