[RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

ForFoxSake
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[RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by ForFoxSake »

BYOND Name of complaint against: Kazkin

Your BYOND name: ForFoxSake

Date of issue and round ID: 9th of July 2019 - Ongoing. RP/No Round ID

Reason for complaint:
I'm going to interrupt the flow of this complaint by starting with a brief outline, so that people looking for the what and why don't have to scroll through everything.

Ahzrukhal Ahkeen's time in security so far has been rife with misinterpretations of corporate regulation, exceeding their authority and failures to cooperate with the rest of the team.
I know that Kazkin aims to be a valued member of this community, and I think they can do better than this.
I would also usually bring a problem like this up in private, but in this case I'm afraid any attempt to do so would be turned into a personal attack against myself.

Now, I've dated this as the 9th of July till now, but this has been going on slightly longer. I looked through the information I had until that date, but that seemed to be roughly when the issues began.

Finally to the full complaint.
Over the past month or so Kazkin has been playing their character Ahzrukhal Ahkeen as a Warden, and during this time their behaviour has been fairly consistent.
Personally my first run in with Ahzrukhal as warden was, unfortunately, playing as Head of Security. Where I was promptly greeted as I got to my office, with the threat of demotion should I "step out of line". Concerned that the first words to greet me from the warden was both a threat and exceeding their authority to boot, I brought it up with Internal Affairs.
Hazel should be able to confirm this incident as they were playing the IA agent I spoke to.
So after a brief but serious IC discussion, I believed that everything was resolved and nothing like this would ever come up again.
How wrong I was.
Onwards to the 9th of July incident - the furthest back I could find reference to. I'm not going to go through this in full, as I believe almost everyone knows what happened here. But in brief: the CE, CMO and HoP were arrested at the same time in a single incident. Now, I believe the details of their sentencing was handled in an ahelp, and while I feel this was a case of unfair brigging going over it again would make this post three times longer.
At the time of this incident, I was playing as Colony Director, and was busy enjoying a romantic meal for two while the three other heads were being arrested. I had all radio channels on at the time, and was skimming them vaguely for anything signs of people calling for my attention. There were none.
It wasn't until the AI said "Director, why are all the command staff in the brig?" over the security channel that anything seemed unusual. Naturally, shortly after hearing that, I ran up to security so fast I nearly locked the person I was roleplaying with in the office. But arriving at security, I found the Head of Security looking as confused as I was. Ahzrukhal claimed that they had made every attempt to alert us of what was happening, but a quick scroll upwards revealed no call for assistance or input from the HoS or myself the CD.
Unfortunately that left both myself and the HoS all of 3 minutes before the tram arrived, and dashed our attempts at actually piecing together the events that had happened, and robbing us of any chance to resolve the issue.
Jessica Dreyse was the HoS that round, and should be able confirm the events.

There's a long gap of involvement from me, personally here, as I've begun playing less from that point on. Especially avoiding command positions. I'm not going to sugar coat this one, it was witnessing Kazkin's attitude towards playing security that caused this period of reduced activity.

The next incident I remember off the top of my head happened a few days ago, when I for some strange reason decided to try playing Head of Security again. This incident started with a security officer insulting the bartender, and taking a beanbag shell to the face for it. I was busy on another part of the station at the time, and was attempting to assess what was happening but it proved difficult as I was only receiving the small fragments of information that other officers had, or that Ahzrukhal decided were "worthy of my attention" (that is to say, all of virtually nothing).
Arriving late, and with little idea of what was going on, I attempted to deal with the situation by pointing out that the offending officer wasn't hurt and that there wasn't any real issue, but my attempts at taking control of the situation were quickly impeded by Ahzrukhal threatening to demote the officer, and put them in the brig for "maximum sentence", which I can only imagine probably bordered on a HuT.

That sums up the specific rounds that I have directly been involved in, as a member of command. I don't even remotely have a count of how many times similar situations have come up in the past month, that don't involve me. But I know there at least several others.

It seems to me as though all these issues stem from two attitudes that could use some adjustment.
The first is that all other security and head players are bad, and that they must be punished as much as possible.
The second being that they feel the need to answer to no one, and that their own input is final and committal above all others.
What's shocking to me is that I've seen on several occasions, one from Avarice even, that the first of these problems is perfectly okay because "heads need to be held to a higher standard". This doesn't fly at all with me, as "heads need to be held to a higher standard" has been the administration's team slogan for some time, and as much as I know indirect enforcement is preferred, I struggle to believe that this wild vigilantism would fly for actual administrative enforcement.
The second issue makes it very difficult to play any head role when Ahzrukhal is on the manifest, as even when they are simply a Warden, they could show up at any moment and take charge of the situation, completely blanking any request to stand down or any attempt to regain control from a commanding member of staff.

I find it quite sad that I'm having to open a player complaint without ever having attempted to contact Kazkin privately about this, as it's really something I'd prefer to do. Privately resolving grievances and issues is really my go-to, but given SovietCyanide's recent experience attempting the same (that he's given me express permission to post here), I am not confident that my concerns would be heard without petty insults being thrown at me.
As such it's come to this, so I'm placing my faith in the forum and hoping that everyone that responds to this thread will do so in a calm and polite manner, without resorting to any personal attacks.

Now that the main body of the complaint is out of the way, I'm going to address you directly Kazkin.
I've never given you any reason to take issue with me, and this isn't me specifically taking issue with you as person.
But the way you've been playing recently, has been making the game less fun for myself and several others.
Please don't shrug this off as some kind of petty rant, I desperately want to see this resolved in a way that benefits everyone.

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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by Kazkin »

ForFoxSake wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:02 pm
I find it quite sad that I'm having to open a player complaint without ever having attempted to contact Kazkin privately about this, as it's really something I'd prefer to do. Privately resolving grievances and issues is really my go-to, but given SovietCyanide's recent experience attempting the same (that he's given me express permission to post here), I am not confident that my concerns would be heard without petty insults being thrown at me.
As such it's come to this, so I'm placing my faith in the forum and hoping that everyone that responds to this thread will do so in a calm and polite manner, without resorting to any personal attacks.
The bolded section in particular is a mild irony because that one isn't quite true. I was contacted privately by an admin when you first went to report me to them 'for being toxic in DMs'. Their was absolutely no complaint that I heard about my play as Ahzrukhal originally and the entire complaint was originally me being 'toxic' in DMs. The admin handling the situation was told by me that I'd dump all my DMs on the spot and that as I've said often, I'm the same person in private that I am in public. After what I can only guess was back and forth between you and said admin the conversation suddenly stopped and you were told to complain on the forums by the admin because your original accusation had no merit at all.

As for SovietCyanide that player in the time I've seen him, in the few times he has played, proven to be incredibly angry and hostile individual. During the first round I ever met him a security officer (a large black tajara, can't remember the name) flashbanged the bar over a conversation with the bartender. As warden at the time I brought the officer in my office (we had no HoS or CD) and gave him a 15 minute talking to before charging him with battery and disturbing the peace, both of which he paid the fine for. Later I went to the bar where SovietCynaide, upon learning that the officer wasn't charged with assault, screamed at me in all caps about how I was incompetent. I read regulation off word for word to explain why it wasn't assault and he took it looc calling me retarded, he was so hostile it had to be ahelped by multiple people for him to chill because everyone in the bar (about 4 people) were getting uncomfortable. At a later date his character, Nicholas, was bullied by a shadekin (not attacked or harmed, bullied) while in security. I heard over comms Iru was handling it before comms were cut. Since I was scening at the time I, the warden, didn't respond to the call as we had 3 officers plus Nich the detective and the HoS Dreyse. When my scene was over I came back where Nich started swearing at me and loudly complaining over comms about me, specifically with saying I was a whore on public comms. Renault, for the third time in 3 weeks, was once again possessed and summoning runes. Said runes weren't doing anything and Renault was just acting as a clown slipping people with bananas. Ahz walked up to Renault and said, "Look, nobody is havin' fun, kin' ye lay off?" The fox nodded and that was it. The next day Sovietcyanide first publicly accused me of being incompetent and then later messaged me with the DMs.. He shit talked me publicly then immediately starts out with accusing my character of being incompetent right at the start.I literally point that out in the screenshot. I told Soviet as much that I simply believed he had anger problems and was over reacting, he started it with an insult and got insulted back. If you step into the ring you can't complain when you get hit.

But, lets focus on you Fox because we have a lot of misrepresentation here. I'm asking Izzy if I could get the round logs for the second interaction to prove much of my side.

Event 1
When I first started playing security I started every shift announcing that under most circumstances evidence or more than 2+ witnesses were required for a charge to be placed. I additionally said this applied to everyone, including heads of staff, and when your character Ith challenged me on that, I said incorrectly charging someone would get you arrested. Later on you brought me into your office where we talked and after some conversation I admitted I was too hostile and apologized, though I stood by my evidence and witness requirement I fully admitted I was far too brutish about it.You then told me I could keep my job because, in your exact words, if I didn't apologize and agree with you you'd have fired me, stating you spoke with Hazel to ensure you could. All of which was fair in-character and in the end Ahzrukhal said she was overzealous and apologized to which I recall Ith specifically thanking me for seeing reason.The conversation was interrupted by a spider invasion (some 100 spiders) and I was sent to deal with that. After that point I stopped making that announcement at shift start, this can be verified by any security main.

Event 2
This incident was one which I personally witnessed the first half in character where junior officer Kal accused the bartender of spitting in peoples drinks and threw their drink on the floor causing a mess. I left the bar at this point to go see Aster as they just arrived, while speaking with Aster it was reported by Kal that they were arresting the bartender for shooting them with the bar shotgun. Iru, the colony director, then told her to hold off on that because the bartender was justified as the CD had witnessed the whole event. I then said to wait and me and Aster, the only other security on duty besides Ith, would go figure things out and see what needed to be done. Ith, the HoS, then thanked me for doing so. Believing the incident would be very shortly handled I told Aster to talk with Kal while I spoke with Cassie. We learned that Kal had caused an issue and was warned multiple times to leave before Cassie aimed the bar shotgun at them and fired by reflex (an accident). Once both were interviewed I told Aster and Kal to meet me south of where they were interviewing, the reading room, over security comms and told Kal I was letting both her and Cassie off with a warning because I'd have to charge them both and did not want to do so. Just as Kal started to become belligerent Ith arrived, and shortly after Iru, Aster and I both fully explained the events to him and he agreed with the choice to leave it at a warning, though I stated outright any charges were ultimately his call as he was the HoS and it was also well within his rights to demote Kal over this as the HoS. The conversation continued where Kal started to become more belligerent and I pointed out insulting your boss, your bosses boss, and the person who could throw you in a cell isn't a smart idea. Kal then said I was against her, to which Ahzrukhal said she was absolutely against her when Kal is in the wrong, security has to self police and officers and by extensions heads of staff, always get max charges to ensure we don't abuse power or act like shit. In this case her charges would have been disturbing the peace and slander, something I said multiple times and both of which can be bypassed by paying a fine (meaning max time means nothing).

This entire event I kept the HoS filled in (at no point did they ask for specific updates other than the location of the interviews) when I could and worked closely with fellow officers under orders of the HoS, at no point did I contradict, supersede, or otherwise try to usurp the chain of command. In fact, the colony director thanked me for handling the matter with Aster and turning a potential shit show into a simple matter. Snowfield, the player of Aster, literally said to me in DMs over discord that I "bent over backwards" for Kal for resolving the situation calmly through out the entire event. The player of Kal, Seechief, posted in discord after the round that the whole event was fun and he had no issues with what went on. He later even offered to create a portrait artwork for Ahzrukhal. If I at all handled this situation poorly why did the CD thank me, why did the player who I had to lambast for doing stupid things (Something Ith/Fox AGREED with me on) say it was fun, and why did the other officer I worked closely with say I was being not only fair but bending over backwards to avoid charging Cassie and Kal? Allow me a joke here, this gives the biggest of thonks.

Event 3
This one you got me on, you have the golden bullet so to speak, as this event was one I fully admit I made a mistake on and did so in the discord after the round. My mistake being too heavy of a charge in a situation unwarranting it. In this specific case a miner was eaten by a corrupt hound in the under dark, HoS Jessica ordered myself and Jim Sanders to retrieve the miners belongings and if possible their corpse as nobody believed we could respond fast enough to save them. When myself and Jim arrived in the under dark we found HoP Nefreta, CMO Rini, and CE Brock Stall with stolen weapons from exploration and a critically injured Rini with the report that the miner was dead. I informed the three heads that they needed to come to security and told Jess over security comms I'm bringing in the HoP, CMO, and CE and charging them for the stolen weapons and acting as security when we had security (i.e. job hijacking). Jess agreed to them being charged and it was on her okay that I even charged them to begin with, as per my policy I gave them max charges for being heads of staff and IC knowing better than to steal weapons and do something so dangerous. Alyona/Fox later came into security and questioned my charges but outright stated that while they were valid it was too harsh of a sentence when they were ultimately acting during an emergency to save a crew member. They also claimed I did not inform them of said charges in which I outright said its isn't my job, it's the chain of command for me to inform Jess and for Jess to inform the colony director. The round ended shortly after and after discussion on discord I said publicly, I made a mistake and the charges were too harsh, in fact I openly admit and reference my mistake in Sovietcynides screenshotted DMs with me.
Now that the main body of the complaint is out of the way, I'm going to address you directly Kazkin.
I've never given you any reason to take issue with me, and this isn't me specifically taking issue with you as person.
But the way you've been playing recently, has been making the game less fun for myself and several others.
Please don't shrug this off as some kind of petty rant, I desperately want to see this resolved in a way that benefits everyone.
I'm going to ignore the wide accusation that fails to bring any specific other than "catmom warden bad" because I can't exactly defend myself against a baseless accusation that fails to bring anything specific up outside the situations you were involved in. You said other people have a problem with how I play security yet in the three examples you could actually give one of them had everyone involved appreciating my efforts as Ahzrukhal and thanking me for what I did. The other had me admitting I was wrong and changing my behavior, because I admitted you were right and agreed. Then the last you have me openly admitting I made a mistake within the same hour the mistake was made and continuing to openly admit my failure as warden, an event that has not repeated again I'll note.

Now, to this gem.
The first is that all other security and head players are bad, and that they must be punished as much as possible.
The second being that they feel the need to answer to no one, and that their own input is final and committal above all others.
What's shocking to me is that I've seen on several occasions, one from Avarice even, that the first of these problems is perfectly okay because "heads need to be held to a higher standard". This doesn't fly at all with me, as "heads need to be held to a higher standard" has been the administration's team slogan for some time, and as much as I know indirect enforcement is preferred, I struggle to believe that this wild vigilantism would fly for actual administrative enforcement.
The second issue makes it very difficult to play any head role when Ahzrukhal is on the manifest, as even when they are simply a Warden, they could show up at any moment and take charge of the situation, completely blanking any request to stand down or any attempt to regain control from a commanding member of staff.
Well firstly, how can you say I take control of every situation when you admit yourself to not playing security at all, like how do you see this if you're not there? In the examples given I deferred all ultimate decisions up to the HoS every time as per the chain of command. People ask Ahzrukhal to handle things often because she has a reputation for being merciful and lenient with people barring shitcurity officers and heads of staff breaking regulation. In truth, and this can be proven with my discord public posting, I've said often that I think security is good and that the regular officers can be trusted to handle things. I largely attribute this to the security self policing we do, an initiative started by security mains Jim Sanders, Jessica Dreyse, Iru, and myself. I'm hard on heads of staff and security officers for breaking regulation/abusing their power because its how we IC handle people being terrible in positions of power. Heads being held to a higher standard is, as you say, the slogan of the administration team and they prefer indirect enforcement by letting players handle player problems in-character. In fact you have an admin telling you that punishing security/command members more harshly is not only okay but preferred. You personally don't agree with what you claim to be the administration teams own preference on how situations are handled. This should be directed in an admin complaint, not towards me, I enforce what I believe is better for the over all community and what you say is the admin teams preference. I've been on servers where head players and security are immune to all punishment that isn't a direct server rule break, it creates a very shitty environment, by playing my character as one people can know and trust to protect them even from bad officers and heads of staff it gives them a chance to have something done if in character power is abused.

EDIT:
As a final note, I recently promoted Ahzrukhal to head of security after several admins said they approved, one being Hazel.
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ForFoxSake
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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by ForFoxSake »

I'm going to attempt to keep this reply short, I don't really care to argue if you're dead set in your ways.
My original post skims over a lot of things, but as it stands I don't feel there's anything that needs to be amended, so here are a couple of responses to some interesting points:

First of all
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
he started it with an insult and got insulted back.
SovietCyanide wasn't insulting you. He called your character incompetent. (Note: That means Ahzrukhal, not you.)
It wasn't the most pleasant words to choose, but the log is there in it's entirety and it's quite clear he was bluntly stating his opinion, but with no offence intended.
"Hey, you've been kind of incompetent so far" does not warrant "Fuck off retard" in response.
If anything, that comes across as somewhat thin skinned.
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
I've said often, I'm the same person in private that I am in public.
Funnily enough, word for word, I don't doubt that one bit.
That doesn't do anything to allay my fears of approaching you privately, however.

Secondly
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
Event 2
Ith, the HoS, then thanked me for doing so.
This entire event I kept the HoS filled in
(Something Ith/Fox AGREED with me on)
I would appreciate it if you could find that player and ask them to substantiate those claims.

Also
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
when you admit yourself to not playing security at all
[Citation Needed]

Third
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
The other had me admitting I was wrong and changing my behavior, because I admitted you were right and agreed.
I believe we wouldn't be here if there'd actually been a substantial change in behavour.
Needless to say, I don't believe we've seen that yet.
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
I largely attribute this to the security self policing we do, an initiative started by security mains Jim Sanders, Jessica Dreyse, Iru, and myself.
I would be delighted if any three of these players would post here to confirm their positions on it.
Of course, I'm currently doubting that they will, as several people who've asked me to remain anonymous have told me they're not comfortable with posting in this thread.
I've actually lost count now. I think it was at like 3 or something.

Finally
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
In fact you have an admin telling you that punishing security/command members more harshly is not only okay but preferred. You personally don't agree with what you claim to be the administration teams own preference on how situations are handled.
This is genuinely a curious one.
You're legitimately, unironically claiming that you can do whatever the hell you want because it's admin approved.
And you know what? You've stumped me here. Congratulations.
So, with that said, if there is actually any admins reading this, could you do us a favour and clarify on this one particular piece.
Is it really encouraged that security members to break SoP as it's written, in order to lay down over the odds charges against heads or other security members?
I'm really curious about this.

Also PS since this was thrown in as an edit on your post:
Kazkin wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:51 am
EDIT:
As a final note, I recently promoted Ahzrukhal to head of security after several admins said they approved, one being Hazel.
I honest to god don't see what this has to do with anything I've said so far.
Weird flex, but okay?

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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by Allakai »

Hello, so I will actually begin my beginning my own input into this. As many of you reading this hopefully are aware, I have attempted to be the player of Security. When it comes to security, the interactions of security, and the current state of affairs regarding security: The matter of Kazkin and the character of Ahzrukhal has been one that I sometimes am uncertain to speak of.

Let me preface my own comment with a very stern statement: This in no way is an attack upon your person, rather I wish to see you improve and become a better player.

As a friend of Kazkin I want to say with the upmost of seriousness that the behavior they have, as well as the matter in which they play security as I had best put it: I do not think you are aware of yourself in the matter in which you handle yourself. Let us start to carefully dismantle my own issues that I have regarding Ahzrukhal and her position in security as the warden and now Head of Security.

POINT 1
I will begin by trying to pick apart your character's understanding of Corporate Regulations. We will begin with this:
As for SovietCyanide that player in the time I've seen him, in the few times he has played, proven to be incredibly angry and hostile individual. During the first round I ever met him a security officer (a large black tajara, can't remember the name) flashbanged the bar over a conversation with the bartender. As warden at the time I brought the officer in my office (we had no HoS or CD) and gave him a 15 minute talking to before charging him with battery and disturbing the peace, both of which he paid the fine for.
Considering I actually remember this particular incident I can actually state that is not quite how it is. I am afraid to say this is not exactly the correct way of things as one this is far too long to actually be handling a gone and done case of flashbanging the bar with mal-intent. This is considered assault under the literal explanation of the Corporate Regulations ICly.
assault.JPG
assault.JPG (51.87 KiB) Viewed 2379 times
I have not much else to go on about the understanding of Corporate Regulations aside from that perhaps a re-understanding is within order. As warden you cannot pick and choose which and what Corporate Regulations you want to uphold and apply. You must be fair yet firm.

We will now actually go upon my own griefs I currently have with Ahzrukhal in security.

POINT 2
To summarize this into as few words as possible: It is not fun to be in security with Ahzrukhal.

In fact for myself I can state it feels like a hassle to be either working with Ahzrukhal when she was warden as she usually does not either want to listen, refuses to listen, or even believes she doesn't HAVE to listen; and a complete drag to be under her command. The most outright being Ahzrukhal and the want and need to feel as though she picks and chooses when she wants to leave the brig. On many occasions I see Ahzrukhal leaving the brig without ever feeling the need to tell or state why and usually often responding to calls herself. Again, as the warden. Even with other members of the team Ahzrukhal seems more obliged to do the work of Security FOR the team rather than WITH the team. While I am not one to throw accusations, this likely stems from Ahzrukhal and her use of going upon solo exploration missions as a Pathfinder.

To further explain this we will begin with the two most recent instances I have had with it being obvious Ahzrukhal tends to appreciate forcing herself past her position or otherwise not wishing to cooperate with the team. Unfortunately, I lack logs; however, there are plenty of players that can give in their statements if they so choose

Instance One

Regarding a rather small incident but one that still somewhat bothered me. There was some sort of incident involving teleporters in science. Their usual jokes and tests; telescience in a nutshell. However there was a particular instance where they had requested security assistance. We already had quite the security team and both I as the Junior Officer as well as an actual officer, that being Joseph Clearance, stated we would respond and could handle the situation but that we required equipment given we did not know what we would be going up against. Ahzrukhal stated SHE would handle the situation, how very humble. Yet we managed to be what felt like being 'allowed' to go, but not without Ahzrukhal equipping a hazard RIG and coming with us. Therefore not only having two armed security officers to handle a possibly minor security matter, but also the warden equipped and armed to the teeth.

Instance Two

This issue still does rub me the wrong way and certainly goes further to state my irritation at Ahzrukhal unable to want to communicate with her team. On her first shift as promoted Head of Security, Ahzrukhal had arrested the Head of Personnel Nefreta. While the charges of course were rather notable, that being 'infiltration' as Nefreta had broken into the RnD telecoms area for something along the lines of getting information. Whatever it was it was very poorly translated to her team as Ahzrukhal took it upon herself to hunt down, arrest, and charge Nefreta while entirely skipping the role she should know very well is their responsibility. That being the warden. It was only until AFTER Nefreta was arrested and ready to be put into the brig that the warden was at all notified what had happened. Upon putting Nefreta into an entirely maxed charge of Infiltration being 30 minutes they were found to have contraband in their bag (which was never stated to the warden what it was) to which Ahzrukhal skipped over her warden and added on ANOTHER 15 minutes of maxed Major Contraband to the sentence Nefreta was already serving as they had already been in their cell for about 5 minutes. Therefore putting Nefreta's player to what was nearly an HOUR of being in a cell.

Kazkin, I implore you that you recognize the issue here. Again, this is not an attack upon you as I want to place constructive criticism and complain the issues I have with you within Security.
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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by Nethaufer »

My entire issue is the tendency for max brig times. These are other players and for the most part regulars to the server. Don't need to do the max sentence, regardless if they're heads of staff and usually max sentences are for repeat offenses in a single shift. People join to play and relax and while they befall the wrong side of ic laws I feel it is rather cruel to immediately go for full sentences out of the gate.

I also want to see your full proof on being given the go ahead on being harsher on heads of staff because I'm finding it difficult to believe you were outright given the go ahead to do so.


Minor edit after thinking a small bit, but the initial timer for Nefreta was likely valid based off of the intent they had on the instance, so I rescind that comment.

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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by VailTheWolf »

Going to medium here. Where are the logs of these incidents? Last I checked that was a big factor in such matters. Also why were these things never ahelped? I'm seeing a whole lot of accusations and no backing other than "He said she said."

I've been working with Kaz ICly with my Sec character for a good while. They do their job. All the other times I've put an arrest in their lap they are usually lenient on a first offense, as a deal to that player/character that of they fuck up again they'll get the time they missed from the lenient first offense. Other times they give what I'd consider a reasonable but heavy penalty for incidents. Now I don't have logs of any IC conversations on this because I don't log every round trying to stake a claim that "All Sec is evil for deciding what their own interpretation of Corp Regs is. They should follow my interpretation that I will never discuss to them civilly, so they have to read my mind through this complaint."

Your lack of specific dates to timeline how often this happens makes me wonder if you just nitpicked from memory, wrote an essay on it, and called it a day expecting results. When complaints end up in a decision from the administration team, they're backed not by words but with logs and ahelps.

I've never seen Ahz as a character step out of line, that's my side of the fence. Usually I think they're too nice sometimes. When we have an HoS it's been "Aye Sir" "Aye Ma'am" out of their mouth and it gets done. If we start attacking security based on their character's IC interpretations of CR, then we will lost any hope of this being a roleplay server with creative freedoms.

That's not to say we haven't had the extreme targeted before. Vellen stepped way out of line as a regular engineer multiple times. It took them fucking up as a Head Role (CE) to burst the dam.

Tl;dr, this is a nitpicking salt complaint based on someone doing their job as Security from someone who isn't directly involved or providing logs, and my side of the story is a vice versa extreme backed by their logic to punish lightly then punish harshly on second offense.
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Skraaak
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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by Skraaak »

I'd like to start off by saying I intend no malice and that this is from my own personal experience over the last year-plus of playing on CitRP, and does not come in the form of a lashing, but of a concerned friend. Being my yearlong reluctance to create an account here has come to an end by the need to speak up about this should help you understand the severity of this.

This will be as clear and concise as I can be, and as inoffensive as I can muster in spite of the context. Being that the first attempt was deleted, this summarized version will have to suffice.

I will start with a brief outline of who Ahz is as a character to properly contextualize the following.

Ms. Ahkeen is a hulking, muscle-bound, 'big tiddied' cyborg Tajara woman. A strong-headed Pathfinder, Roboticist, Research Director, Warden, and Head of Security with a supposed enhanced mental and motor functions able to casually lift in excess of 1,200 lbs. All whilst being near the top of her field in Redspace theory, anomalies, and artifacts, hand-to-hand combat, ranged weaponry, and having at very least a passing ability of spacecraft piloting and navigation. Whilst being fueled by nothing but sex, violence, and unironically, cocaine.

She is an ego and a powertrip on two legs. A running theme in her abilities is that she is better than you regardless of the subject, she knows better than you, because she was/is the [previous job] or has dabbled in [current subject]. Not only is she better than you, she is above you in authority, because she's Ahz, obviously. This is not a character flaw, as it's treated as absolute and objective fact.

Which brings me to the grinding issue, that being that both in and out of character, Ahz and Kaz are immovable, steadfast, and determined in being right. No matter how wrong she is, she is right and anyone who opposes her is objectively incorrect and stupid for being so wrong. Ahz knows best.

Point this out, or any of the frankly absurd features of this character, and you are wrong to her player, Kaz. In fact, the only time when even the slightest wrongdoing will ever be admitted from this perfect, infallible, amazonian warrior is when threatened with immediate, serious and lasting consequence which will meaningfully harm her ego and ability to relentlessly and flagrantly wield power over people. An unfortunate flaw to have when openly flaunting sexual domination, as frankly no one asked to have that come to the workplace. Any attempts to reign this in or criticize this design and behavior OOC in private or public are met with open hostility and dismissed without a second thought, ignored or brushed off along the lines of an “Okay, retard” regardless of method or validity.

One may begin to imagine these traits are less than ideal for a Warden, let alone a Head of Security.

Then onto the real, tangible issues, shall we?

Her entire stay in security has been a miserably, arduous time and exercise in restraint by everyone with the misfortune to have to work around her. She has a wanton disinterest in communications and the chain of command, and a critically flawed understanding of both laws and justice as a concept.

We can start with her not knowing any boundaries regardless of role. She plays Pathfinder? Acts like Sec. Plays RD? acts like HoP. Plays Warden? thinks she's the HoS. Plays HoS? acts like that makes her acting director and oversteps to demote the HoP on her own.

The only power she respects is her own, and insubordination is rife. At any opportunity, she will vastly overstep her bounds, seemingly of the impression that the Warden outranks all of the Heads of Staff and that is her personal, sworn duty to 'flex' this perceived power and dominance over them at any opportunity under the guise of enforcing the idea that Heads are to be punished more harshly because of their positions. While it's generally agreed upon that heads should receive harsher sentences for crimes as they should know better, this is being used as an excuse to treat Heads as the lowest life on the station, only to be treated as children at best, and vermin at worst. All while neglecting her actual duties, picking and choosing whatever suits her fancy to honor security with her immense wisdom and power as the Second Coming.

While normally, knowing her and the player behind the mask, this would be readily shrugged off as a salty Head or pissant Security grunt angry and ineffectual at not having their way. However...
I am Commander Jessica Dreyse, and welcome to my TED Talk.

I admittedly don't have the most sterling of reputations, but I have had to work with Ahz for quite some time as my main character and others.

But. I can say with absolute certainty that Ms. Ahkeen is nowhere near as beloved amongst the crew and Security as her misguided and overinflated opinion of herself leads her to believe. Indeed, quite the opposite, I know a number of people, myself included, regularly opt out of joining Command and Security positions at seeing Ms. Ahkeen as Warden, and doubly so now that she's made the appalling decision to become a regular HoS.

Nor is she anywhere near as effective or competent in the realm of security as she believes, in fact she regularly demonstrates an understanding of the law, regulation, and SOP so critically flawed as to be directly counter to reality. Directly inverse at times, even.
  • Her application and understanding of sentencing and offender treatment is often the inverse of the seriousness of the crimes and their effect on victims and the station as a whole.
  • Her complete lack of communications, broadly as well as critical situations and information.
  • A complete and total disregard for the actual position of Warden, seemingly of the impression that it makes her both field officer and HoS, with the power of both regardless of where she is, the responsibility of neither, and the accountability of a CentCom officer.
  • Flagrant insubordination and overstepping boundaries up to and including threatening the Director.
  • Little to no RP to actually fit the setting.
Firstly, she is dead-set in her misinterpretations of regulations, such as giving conventional battery charges to incidents of arguably major assault or maximum sentencing of Major Contraband to harmless and cooperative suspects. She holds Corpregs as though a bible carved in gold, yet doesn't apply it to herself or even with the slightest reflection of reality on suspects. To go with this is her near-paranoid obsession of trumping up charges and sniffing out crime in the field as a Warden, doubly so if she can get any dirt on a Head.

Whenever she is needed in the brig, she can be found in the dorms or drinking, with little regard for pretending it's her job. The officer being pelted with objects by a shadekin in the processing room was amusing, however she completely disregarded his frantic screaming on the radio to help, including the “OH GOD IT'S GRABBING ME HELP!” before communications went down. On the presumption that a Junior Officer saying he's on his way was sufficient to deal with an transdimensional murder-toddler.

Recently she's taken to sidestepping and openly defying Colony Directors and Heads of Security, including myself. From issuing orders at the CD as Warden, to her recent stunt as HoS to personally demote the HoP without any communication to or approval from the Director.

This is the person who issued an arrest warrant for negligence, dereliction, and sparking a manhunt on a cargo technician who left an otherwise staffed cargo bay(Another CT and a QM) to resign, because she turned over her headset and PDA and couldn't hear the DEMANDS to come be punished at the brig. Mind you, this was while the CD was calmly issuing the ID change and the HoS was standing by to talk to said CD. As Warden, Ahz continued to argue that all her charges were valid for several minutes despite the Director and HoS outlining in detail how out of line she was and how bullshit every charge was.

This is the person who constantly over-escalates every situation, then proceeds to brag about how good her diplomatic skills are, despite constantly coming but a few words away from being demoted on the spot for insubordination. As a regular security player, I like Ahz, but damned if she isn't the worst person to be a Warden or HoS. This is coming from a friend of hers, and I can't begin to express how poor a job she's done as Sec.

If I had even the slightest belief that it would have a lasting effect, I would gladly have not only demoted her, but on several instances, entirely fired her from security nearly every other shift I've had to be her boss. It is a painful, frustrating experience every single time she plays any facet of Security, a constant draining experience every time she spews out her No-RP drivel to make sure the experience is as negative as possible for everyone involved.

Going right back up to the beginning, her nonchalant play of an expert in everything and her belief in being the be-all-end-all relayer of objective truth and fact because of her experience doing everything on one outright Mary Sue character leads her to simply not RP any situation with the slightest hint of believability. Using the meta knowledge of what is and isn't antagonistic mechanically, she's completely unconcerned by blood runes, redspace crystals, and demonic whispering because it's not a cult round, duh. Or any number of things. There is no cause for alarm or even mild concern when Ms. Ahkeen is around, she'll handle anything the galaxy and beyond has to offer because she's a perfect badass who ain't scared of no things, and knows that if it's not exactly what a game mode produces, it's nothing to be worried about.


Then we get into things like this:
I'm bringing in the HoP, CMO, and CE and charging them for the stolen weapons and acting as security when we had security (i.e. job hijacking). Jess agreed to them being charged and it was on her okay that I even charged them to begin with, as per my policy I gave them max charges for being heads of staff and IC knowing better than to steal weapons and do something so dangerous. Alyona/Fox later came into security and questioned my charges but outright stated that while they were valid it was too harsh of a sentence when they were ultimately acting during an emergency to save a crew member. They also claimed I did not inform them of said charges in which I outright said its isn't my job, it's the chain of command for me to inform Jess and for Jess to inform the colony director.
This is what we call a bold-faced lie. And one of those situations where she was once again, and as always, toeing the line of being fired on the spot by the person she pretends had her back. No, my friends, this is an example of that glorious time when she didn't communicate with anyone, put three heads in the brig with maximum charges, HUT at the time due to round length, didn't tell anyone, and refused to acknowledge her wrongdoing until much later.

This was simply the most public instance, there's been countless other times just that I've personally witnessed where she's been a single word away from being fired summarily. I don't play that often, so I dread what others have experienced, as the tidbits that have made it to me have been enough to remind me why I barely play anymore.
TL;DR
Ahz is legitimately the worst person and personality possible to be Security, let alone the Warden and now HoS. I am loathe to call her shitcurity, but many would be inclined to use it.

No one enjoys it but her, it brings nothing remotely positive, and is overwhelmingly negative to every single person aboard but herself. Nothing but a powertrip to stroke a Hindenburg-like ego and flaunt how “amazing” she is.

I implore you to try find anyone in Security that she isn't in a sexual relationship with who would say she's good at her job. Personally, I think she should go back to more positive and mundane jobs for a bit and come a little back down to earth.
I like you Ahz, I really do. But it's out of hand and you've only been getting worse.

*Post Scriptum: I have been corrected on the matter of her drinking, it seems she prefers non-alcoholic beverages on duty, and has only been aware of being called from dorms once.

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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by LordDoge »

To preface this, as many others have done, I want to say I have no issue with Kazkin as a player OOCly. All of my issues lay completely with Ahz's actions IC. Along with this, I want to mention that I play Iru, the annoying Teshari security officer and a much bigger mistake, CD. This post will not be as long as others, as I don't have as much to bring to the table compared to more senior members, although I will do my best to input where I can.

I find Ahzrukahl the definition of a snowflake character. While I believe people should be able to express the characters how they wish, this seems more of a case of purely powergaming/all knowing. This is one of my primary concerns, the fact that a single character has so much knowledge of everything from Security work, to simple Science work and RD. Not only does she have a seemingly unlimited amount of knowledge from an IC perspective, but she is also an absolute powerhouse that has stated they alone can rip someone's limbs off from the OOC text. I do not understand why in any way this is necessary. It makes her seem less of a character, a REAL person, and more of a mutated amalgamation of knowledge and power.

From my perspective, and from what I could gather by the month or so of playtime on the server, is that she does not fully understand the Chain of Command. For now, I will be specifically talking about her as a warden, but I'll get into more later. The biggest concern of mine is that Warden is seen as a miniature version of an HoS. This includes ordering the other Security Officers around, which is beyond the scope of what a Warden is supposed to do. The fact that she warned a superior with charges is absolutely ludicrous. I will now talk about one of my key personal interactions that I found issue with.

I was playing my character Iru, that shift I was CD. While this was a bad decision in a character perspective, that isn't the point of this. Ahz had became HoS that shift. The shift was mostly quiet, until the HoP Nefreta had attempted to break into the RnD server labs. A few moments pass and Ahz would ask Nefreta to come to security, which I then corrected and told her to come to the bridge as this was an issue beyond Securities reach at the current moment. She listened, and that's completely fair, I have no issue with that. My issue was what happened while Nefreta was in the bridge. First of all, Ahz told the CE at that time to exit the bridge, even though I made no statement that he needed to. She then went on to explain what Nefreta did was extremely wrong, while talking about sentences and such. All of this happened while I was writing up a fax to CC due to the high position of the demotion I intended to do. Ahz then went on to tell Nefreta herself to go pack her things up as she was being demoted, although I didn't explicitly say that I was going to demote her. THIS right here, is my BIGGEST concern. The fact that she did not pay attention to my final word in the matter, and did something before I confirmed it with both of them. They then went on to sentence Nefreta for almost an hour, which to be fair Iru did not say anything in contest to that, although by the time he learned of the exact sentencing time the timer was up.

In conclusion, I believe Ahz is not fit for a command position. Along with this, I think the baseline of her character is built upon a ridiculous format of all-knowing and all powerful. As said previously, I have no issue with the player. They are a friend of mine, although as stated above, it's out of hand.

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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by ForFoxSake »

VailTheWolf, while your post is certainly a nice defence, I can't help but feel it would have been better made had you actually read even the outline of my initial post, as you would have been able to construct counter points to things that I've actually said, as opposed to trying to defend Kazkin from what could be literally any other complaint that's ever graced this forum.
VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
"that I will never discuss to them civilly, so they have to read my mind through this complaint."
It's particularly these exact words that lead me to believe you've only skimmed over everything that's been said here.
This is a civil discussion, specifically so that no mind reading is required. More than that, the very purpose of this thread is so that Kazkin can see the full extent of a problem I believe they were previously dismissing.
VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
you just nitpicked from memory, wrote an essay on it, and called it a day expecting results.
I would personally describe it as, "I put the events that stood out at the forefront of my mind into a post, in the hope Kazkin would listen to me."
Now if we're not fussy over the exact words, those are pretty much the same thing.

But you see, the reason for that is...
VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
Where are the logs of these incidents?
VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
Now I don't have logs of any IC conversations on this because I don't log every round
These expectations are contradictory.
I don't have logs, because I don't join every round expecting for there to be an issue worthy of being raised in a player complaint.
If I took logs of every round, just in case, then I would be guilty of looking for things to complain about.
So, I'm going to give you a second chance here if you choose to take it. Which one of these things is the correct course of action?
Should I ask the administration for the logs of what happened, in order to build an airtight case of why administrative action should be taken?
Or should I air my feelings as they are, hoping that rather than an admin takes action, that Kazkin takes notice and corrects their behaviour themselves?
VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
Vellen stepped way out of line as a regular engineer multiple times.
Referencing Vellen here serves little purpose, and again I feel that's immediately obvious in the difference of tone between these complaint threads, coupled with the fact these are completely different circumstances.
VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
Tl;dr, this is a nitpicking salt complaint based on someone doing their job as Security from someone who isn't directly involved or providing logs, and my side of the story is a vice versa extreme backed by their logic to punish lightly then punish harshly on second offense.
Tl;dr certainly does seem fitting, doesn't it?
You call me out as being uninvolved in the topic at hand, yet show no real understanding of what the topic at hand is.
Now, I appreciate that you saw an open player complaint, and jumped in desperate to defend your friend.
It's completely understandable.
Personally though, if you really want to defend Kazkin's behaviour, I'd at least like to ask that you stick to the topic of the complaint, and actually address issues raised. Even if all you want to do is ask for an admin to fetch logs for something, because that would be far more helpful to everyone involved, rather than just sitting on the sidelines calling me salty.

Edit: I forgot to add this to the main post, so I'll just throw it in here.
This complaint is not intended to be a lynch mob, and I want to avoid it devolving into one in either direction.

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Re: [RP] Kazkin - Unfair Brigging, Failure to Follow Chain of Command and Lack of Cooperation With Other Players

Post by Skraaak »

VailTheWolf wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am
Tl;dr, this is a nitpicking salt complaint based on someone doing their job as Security from someone who isn't directly involved or providing logs, and my side of the story is a vice versa extreme backed by their logic to punish lightly then punish harshly on second offense.
If you actually read the thread, you'll find it's quite the opposite.

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