[R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

superHB
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[R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by superHB »

BYOND account and character name: super hotshot bowser- Keron Calleum
Noting admin: R3dtaile
Noting type/duration: Whatever the checkmark is, I'm not sure.
2019-11-23 18:05:36 | CitadelStation | R3dtaile
Warned for taking items belonging to a head of staff from their locker without permission from the relevant head of staff.
Overall I think the note is a bit silly and a warning would've sufficed enough. OR honestly this should really be PURELY and IC issue and nothing that should've involved admins.

I don't have the round number on me, so if anyone would like to pull it for the thread please do. There were some rules cited in the PMs that I cannot find at all on the website except for one of them.

It was a blueshift, 40 minutes into the round, where I asked the AI (N-Bot) to open up the RD office so I can grab the RD's Winter Coat. I only wanted to wear it because someone was saying in OOC that they're glad people are liking the new coats, so I figured I wanted to 1) See what it looked like and 2) also show my appreciation for it. There's also 3) The potential of making the Cosmic Coat (that I saw yesterday), which requires ALL coats to make (including Head coats) with the crafting menu.

The AI (N-Bot) said they didn't have a shell so they couldn't open the locker, so they told me to ask OMNI. OMNI eventually came to Science to open the locker for me, but then Sachi came in and told them that they couldn't do it unless I had the Captain's permission. I told Sachi that there was no Captain and he told me to then ask the Acting Captain. At the time there was only the HoS (Dov... I forgot the last name). So I PDA'd them, they said it was fine, then I had the coat for maybe a good 20 more minutes before I got bwoinked over it.

It wasn't the baton, tablet, reactive armor, intellecard, Proto Suit or Headset, nothing that could give me any kind of advantage over another player or for any kind of power gaming reason. I don't really see the reason for admins to get involved at all considering it was something that was completely handled in IC. I was told via PM that the Acting Captain had no authority over other departments. Which ok, fair, however it was legitimately 40-60mins into a round, on lowpop (32), with no other heads on except the HoS who was acting and if a RD came on and wanted his coat, I would've given it to him, but no RD came on, even after I cryo'd.

If N-Bot, Sachi, OMNI, and Dov could also pop on to clarify the story as well that would be appreciated.

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HazelBailey
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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by HazelBailey »

Taking anything from a head of staff locker without permission is against the rules, outright. Furthermore, notes are only appealable if they were placed in error or outright wrong. The reason taking things from other heads of staff lockers is against the rules is because it sucks to join a round wanting to use a specific piece of your job gear, only to see it was stolen by someone that isn't playing that head. As a result, I am against this appeal.

superHB
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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by superHB »

HazelBailey wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:32 pm
Taking anything from a head of staff locker without permission is against the rules, outright. Furthermore, notes are only appealable if they were placed in error or outright wrong. The reason taking things from other heads of staff lockers is against the rules is because it sucks to join a round wanting to use a specific piece of your job gear, only to see it was stolen by someone that isn't playing that head. As a result, I am against this appeal.
I'm sorry but I don't see it on this page when I do a ctrl-f search with either of these keywords: Locker, head, clothing

https://katlin.dog/citadel-rules/main

Could you point me to what exactly one it is? I just don't see it.

Plus, I did get permission from the Acting Captain after Sachi told me to.

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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by Redtail »

Operating under the precedent set by acting captain not being able to take shit from the captain's locker indicates that this note should stay in place. the acting captain does not have authority over other departments. Only theirs, and in situations where the captain's decision is necessary.

Acting captains: The role of acting captain is for the making of executive decisions only, such as execution and permabrigging. The acting captain is not expected to, and should not, dictate to other heads of staff how to run their department.

"Taking stuff out out of heads of staff lockers, without an actual emergency necessitating it, is outside the scope of those rules" . So, the note is fully valid.

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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by superHB »

Redtail wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:48 pm
Operating under the precedent set by acting captain not being able to take shit from the captain's locker indicates that this note should stay in place. the acting captain does not have authority over other departments. Only theirs, and in situations where the captain's decision is necessary.

Acting captains: The role of acting captain is for the making of executive decisions only, such as execution and permabrigging. The acting captain is not expected to, and should not, dictate to other heads of staff how to run their department.
I'm sorry but this sounds ridiculous. That rule states:
As the acting captain you inherit their responsibilities, not their rank or equipment (upgrading your access and taking the spare captain headset to communicate with other departments is fine, however). You're expected to secure the spare ID and the nuclear authentication disk. Changing into the captain's gear and changing your job title to something unrelated to your actual position('Captain' or 'Acting Captain') is confusing for both players and admins.
This rule specifies a few things and ISN'T related to regular staff.

It specifies:

1) Acting Captains

2) Acting Captains cannot take Captain Rank/Equipment

3) Allows them to take the headset to communicate with other departments.

I don't think this is really ambiguous enough to even think of stretching it to regular staff and their head lockers.

And going back on the other rule about how they shouldn't tell Heads of Staff how to dictate their department: There were no Heads of Staff on so there was no way they could dictate to the Head of Staff how to "dictate" to give me a coat, because there were none on! And if you really want to grasp straws here, running a department =/= asking permission to obtain an article of clothing.
Redtail wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:48 pm
"Taking stuff out out of heads of staff lockers, without an actual emergency necessitating it, is outside the scope of those rules" . So, the note is fully valid.
Can you please quote that rule directly from this page? https://katlin.dog/citadel-rules/main

Please link me, screen shot it, show me that this exists. If it doesn't, I cannot see why an unwritten rule can be enforced onto people. That is ridiculous and how am I suppose to know that there's these unspoken rules that everyone is suppose to know?

On top of that, don't you think one of the players (N-Bot, Sachi, Omni, or Dov) would've tried to convince me NOT to get it in character if the rule was this well known? Or hell, if the knew about it they could've also told me in LOOC that it was against the rules.

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HazelBailey
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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by HazelBailey »

The rules you are looking for are
6.2 Don't steal items from another department for your own convenience or to inconvenience them, especially important items for that department.
All examples are just that and are not an exact list of what is and is not allowable.
The reason for this is, again, that the players would likely want to come in and use these items themselves. An admin told you to not take things from a head of staff locker. You were given a note that ultimately means nothing if you never do the thing that got you the note again. But the note is still valid and will not be lifted simply because you dont want it.

Furthermore, it is not the jobs of other players to prevent you from breaking rules. If you order a borg/AI to let you in somewhere, it's not on them to tell you "Hey this is against the rules", because you may be an antag and trying to tell you that something is against the rules is a waste of time in that case.

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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by Redtail »

That too. In addition, even if it isn't strictly labled, we disallow the person meant to replace the captain from taking stuff from the captain's locker, it's perfectly rational to extend that to the other heads of staff lockers and their relevent underlings as well. Otherwise, that grants full permission for folks to break into heads of staff lockers, and that clearly won't fly. The note can stay, just like Hazel said, if you don't do what made this an issue in the first place, it won't come up again.

If you want to dress like a head of staff, play a head of staff (Or get that relevant heads of staff permission if they offer it to you) .

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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by superHB »

HazelBailey wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:18 am
The rules you are looking for are
6.2 Don't steal items from another department for your own convenience or to inconvenience them, especially important items for that department.
All examples are just that and are not an exact list of what is and is not allowable.
The reason for this is, again, that the players would likely want to come in and use these items themselves. An admin told you to not take things from a head of staff locker. You were given a note that ultimately means nothing if you never do the thing that got you the note again. But the note is still valid and will not be lifted simply because you dont want it.

Furthermore, it is not the jobs of other players to prevent you from breaking rules. If you order a borg/AI to let you in somewhere, it's not on them to tell you "Hey this is against the rules", because you may be an antag and trying to tell you that something is against the rules is a waste of time in that case.
To me that rule seems straightforward as a "hey don't steal from OTHER departments to benefit yourself" meaning things like Insuls from Engineering/Engineering places (even though a TON of people do this), Jaws/Sonic Jackhammer, grabbing a stunbaton, etc. Since it's under "power gaming" I would automatically assume this means things that could give people a direct advantage. A winter coat does not. And if we spin it to power gaming for some reason, it wasn't to intentionally inconvenience any incoming RD.

As for the players not warning me, c'mon, it's a winter coat. There's no traitor objs to take a winter coat! With how many people meta on the server, people would know that.
Redtail wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:31 am
That too. In addition, even if it isn't strictly labled, we disallow the person meant to replace the captain from taking stuff from the captain's locker, it's perfectly rational to extend that to the other heads of staff lockers and their relevent underlings as well. Otherwise, that grants full permission for folks to break into heads of staff lockers, and that clearly won't fly. The note can stay, just like Hazel said, if you don't do what made this an issue in the first place, it won't come up again.

If you want to dress like a head of staff, play a head of staff (Or get that relevant heads of staff permission if they offer it to you) .
You see here's the issue. Acting Captain, to anyone IC, would think that they have more authority than they do. Rules might just say executive decisions, but taking a small article of clothing is a pretty minor decision. It's just a damn coat! So please tell me how am I suppose to know of an unwritten extension to a rule and get noted for it. Was the Acting Captain of that shift noted for this too? This is ridiculous.

Please rewrite the rules to be more clear and not cherry picked to only work in certain situations.

For ex I've seen a LOT of Sec/Heads/etc use traitor gear well past their prime, but it gets marked as an IC issue only. So why wasn't this an IC issue only?

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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by Redtail »

Because sec/heads don't acquire traitor gear via breaking into a heads of staff locker? There's a significantly different context. And if the acting captain thinks they have authority over other departments, ahelp that, because they clearly don't. If you want to wearthe RD's coat, be the RD or have THE RD's permission. They weren't there to grant that permission, so you had no right to take it.

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Re: [R3dtaile] super hotshot bowser - Note Appeal

Post by superHB »

Redtail wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:55 am
Because sec/heads don't acquire traitor gear via breaking into a heads of staff locker? There's a significantly different context. And if the acting captain thinks they have authority over other departments, ahelp that, because they clearly don't. If you want to wearthe RD's coat, be the RD or have THE RD's permission. They weren't there to grant that permission, so you had no right to take it.
1) I didn't break in, I had borgs/AI get it for me.

2) I had permission from the Acting Captain. Yes they can't give authority on that but HOW AM I SUPPOSE TO KNOW???? If someone says "yes", I'm assuming that's A OK. How do I get noted for getting permission IC to do something?

3) Again, it was super low pop, early morning, over halfway into the round and there was no RD, Captain, HoP, CMO, QM or CE, just the HoS who was acting. If RD or Captain popped on I would've asked them for it too (or sub sequentially, asked them if I could still keep it).

Overall it's ridiculous that I get a note for getting IC permission for something REGARDLESS of what the rules for the acting captain is. It shouldn't fall onto my shoulders that they broke a rule, but I get punished for it?

As for the sec/heads thing.. cmon.. sec loots it from the body and doesn't keep it locked up in the evidence locker, they just use it for themselves.

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