[MrJWhit] R3dtaile Note Appeal

[Redtail]

The rules we often times have to ping to make sure our interpretation of them is correct? The rules that very often depend on the exact context of the round? There was context to justify the application of lethal force. The rest of the round, and the beliefe that he had adrenals due to the chatbox clutter causing me to miss Feasel’s apparent attempt at announcing that he was hopped up on nuka cola. There wasn’t a breaking of the rules, it was a reasonable application of lethal force due to nonlethal methods not working, which is allowed by the rules. Act like an antag get treated like an antag, play stupid games, get stupid prizes, is a known thing around here. Like it sucks that he got killd and if I had known the whole picture it wouldn’t have happened, but that round was hectic and the decision was made with the intent to keep the station safe, not valid hunt or kill some greytider. I legitimately thought that he was hopped up on adrenals, and that the armour was toggleable, I would’ve happily taken him in nonlethally if it was possible, but it wasn’t proving to be an option. There were not rules broken, the application of lethal force was absolutely the right call to make, going by the context of the round and the general mood of the shift. And it was multiple people, because one of the borgs, OMNI IIRC, was trying to protect Feasel, who we again, believed was a threat. I flashed OMNI, and kept trying to deal with Feasel. We fully believed he was on adrenals.

The emergency shuttle is often times a hectic area, much like this time, with the various sprites overlapping and the blood overlapping sprites, it was near impossible to tell if he was in stam crit or not, and again, we were still operating under him being under the ffects of adrenals. Hence, the resort to lethal force.

And I didn’t ignore Ana, I was dealing with a number of more prominent threats that shift than just someone with a spear. When they tried to attack me on the shuttle with it, they got dealt with appropriately. The situation , while unfortunately misguided, was handled as appropriately as can be with the information we had at hand.

[Nethaufer]

I sorta back Red here. It's well and easy to say you should have done x y z after the fact, but during the heat of the moment you go with the info you have. Going to lethals, to me, is a clear step when your other options don't appear to be working. Even if the note isn't to be removed it should be edited to better explain the situation. Right now it's painting it a much worse situation than it really was.

[SteelMarionette]

I believe bringing up things that Redtail has told other people in such a situation would be useful to put this in perspective.

Also, you’re a HOS. I’ve told you repeatedly, you should expect to be called out if you fuck up. Man up over it. If you mess up, roll with the punches and learn from your mistakes. Think about how your behavior IC makes people feel. That’s ..pretty much the gist of it. Being HOS isnt’ a free permission slip to be an ass to people. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2739&p=9373#p9373

It is not enough to preach the rules, you must be willing to follow them yourself and ‘man up over it’. Accept that you are in the wrong and then improve from there. If you cannot do that then you are being hypocritical and dishonest with everyone you’ve interacted with in the past. There is no double standard, being HOS isnt’ a free permission slip to be an ass to anyone and being an admin as well you should be held to an even higher standard.

[Redtail]

I believe bringing up things that Redtail has told other people in such a situation would be useful to put this in perspective.

Also, you’re a HOS. I’ve told you repeatedly, you should expect to be called out if you fuck up. Man up over it. If you mess up, roll with the punches and learn from your mistakes. Think about how your behavior IC makes people feel. That’s ..pretty much the gist of it. Being HOS isnt’ a free permission slip to be an ass to people. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2739&p=9373#p9373

It is not enough to preach the rules, you must be willing to follow them yourself and ‘man up over it’. Accept that you are in the wrong and then improve from there. If you cannot do that then you are being hypocritical and dishonest with everyone you’ve interacted with in the past. There is no double standard, being HOS isnt’ a free permission slip to be an ass to anyone and being an admin as well you should be held to an even higher standard.

I was not being an ass though. Different context, completely different scenario, it /does not/ apply here as well as you think it does.

[SteelMarionette]

Think about how your behavior IC makes people feel, the HOS doing an on sight execution on someone who’s stunned and cuffed over nothing but hunch’s gleamed from flawed OOC knowledge of speed mechanics and stuns. Is this something that is just the norm now, the HOS being allowed to execute someone just for running around slightly faster than the norm? The same could be said for the warden, is it just accepted that the warden, whom’s main duty is to guard security and the armory, is allowed to decide using lethals on a civilian whom has up until then had no convictions nor arrest status. If he was such a concern why didn’t either of you set him to arrest and bring him in for questioning earlier in the shift? If it was well known that he might have adrenals why not prep with tranqs? You say that in the escape shuttle things are hectic and you have to make split second decisions yet you admit to having know about him being a possible threat for quite a while leading up to the shuttle being called.

I hear reports of Feasel running around with adrenals and gravity armour. I react appropriately and attempt to detain them. This lasts unti l the shuttle is called, where it’s too late to get to the armoury for more nonlethal options such as the temp gun. So had to make do with what we had, which even after being dragnetted, Feasel kept running around

You are telling me that the whole time before the shuttle arrived you never once thought to gather non-lethal equipment to detain him? Not even swung by medical to pick up chems or to cargo to order crates of non-lethal ammunition? If this is the case then you chose to go down the lethal route in blatant disregard to any other option.

And I must ask, what would be involved in detaining Feasel if you caught up to him before the shuttle arrived? You didn’t have non-lethal methods to subdue him before the shuttle arrived due to neglecting to seek out said methods. Would you of just let lethal’d him

due to nonlethal options not being a possibility

[Redtail]

Lethal force is allowed when nonlethal force isn’t working. And he wasn’t a concern until heard reports of him being on adrenals. Security was hectic at that point and so no one got around to setting his wanted status, but everyone knew who we were after. Just because they weren’t set to wanted doesn’t…really mean anything If all relevant personnel knew who the target was. …What do you mean prep with tranqs? Nonlethal forms, such as tazing, and dragnetting, weren’t working. So, lethal force was applied. And…no? by the time I was able to divert focus to him, the shuttle was well on its way. …My shotgun’s always loaded with beanbag shells, but I’m not going to unload those on the shuttle and hit innocents. That’s asking for trouble. And, I’m not going to go to chem when the shuttle’s literally soon to leave and try and get chemistry to whip me up something that’ll work. I had plenty of nonlethal options on me, they just weren’t effective, that’s the entire point of escalating into application of lethal force. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth, or jumping to conclusions, or outright making up information. If I was able to detain him nonlethally I would have happily done so, but it was not in the cards.

[SteelMarionette]

I believe bringing up things that Redtail has told other people in such a situation would be useful to put this in perspective.

Also, you’re a HOS. I’ve told you repeatedly, you should expect to be called out if you fuck up. Man up over it. If you mess up, roll with the punches and learn from your mistakes. Think about how your behavior IC makes people feel. That’s ..pretty much the gist of it. Being HOS isnt’ a free permission slip to be an ass to people. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2739&p=9373#p9373

It is not enough to preach the rules, you must be willing to follow them yourself and ‘man up over it’. Accept that you are in the wrong and then improve from there. If you cannot do that then you are being hypocritical and dishonest with everyone you’ve interacted with in the past. There is no double standard, being HOS isnt’ a free permission slip to be an ass to anyone and being an admin as well you should be held to an even higher standard.

I was not being an ass though. Different context, completely different scenario, it /does not/ apply here as well as you think it does.

It most certainly applies here, you seem to refuse to accept you’re in the wrong and fight vehemently to prove it instead of accepting it and striving to do better. I want to see you do better, I believe we all do. That is why you must own up to your mistakes while playing HOS, especially when you hold others to such standards.

…My shotgun’s always loaded with beanbag shells, but I’m not going to unload those on the shuttle and hit innocents. That’s asking for trouble.

So you using lethals in a crowd is acceptable?

[Redtail]

See, there you go, putting words in my mouth. If I’m not going to use /nonlethal shells/ in a crowd, that applies just as much, if not more so, to lethals. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth . And I’m a fine HOS, and I definitely meet those standards, that’s why I’m appealing the note in the first place. Stop making up things, thank you.

[SteelMarionette]

You are making up reasons to justify not trying any non-lethal option. He wasn’t on adenals as was proven at round end, bean bag slugs would of incapacitated him quite easily yet you didn’t try because you assumed he was a traitor. Beanbag slugs do minimal damage, even if you were to miss i believe it would of been no big issue to clip a few people with a bit of stamina damage and minor brute

[SteelMarionette]

I am not making up anything, I am just pointing out things you said and facts that you do not want to confront. Calling my argument invalid because you cannot explain yourself without digging yourself a deeper hole doesn’t make it invalid