[R3dtaile] Krzyzstof_K - Note Appeal

[Krzyzstof_K]

BYOND account and character name: Krzyzstof_K - Lolli Usuarzan
Noting admin: R3dtaile
Noting type/duration: Heavy-severity
Note Reason: Warned for validhunting. As a chaplain, after telling a mime to stop hacking vendors, and deconstructing windows, with which the mime cooperated, and left into maintenance. They followed the mime, but not before drawing their holy claymore. The mime took this as a threat, and retaliated with finger guns since they were an antag. Considering the context, and the fact that security was well-staffed, even if down an officer at the time, security was still fairly well-staffed. They had already called for security on the mime as well, but followed , which escalated the situation a lot more than it rationally needed to.

Let me reword a few things because some of this is heavily diluted, "Warned for validhunting. As a chaplain (followed the mime and called for security),(then) after telling a mime to stop hacking vendors, and deconstructing windows, with which the mime(ran away)cooperated, and left into maintenance(where they shortly mimed finger banged me with their technique and attempted to brainwash me."

This is pretty all relevant text that happened during when I followed them before they ran.

Common] Lolli Usuarzan says, "Mime has a sec bowman"
Lolli Usuarzan says, "Mime has a sec bowman"
Shade stares. <----
[Common] Lolli Usuarzan says, "Security to medbay mime is hacking stuff"
Lolli Usuarzan says, "Security to medbay mime is hacking stuff"
Shade stares. <----
*---------*
This is Shade!
You can't make out what species they are.
She is wearing a mime's skirt.
She is wearing a french beret on her head.
She is wearing a suspenders.
She has a satchel on her back.
She has some combat gloves on her hands. <----
She has a toolbelt about her waist.
She is wearing some black shoes on her feet.
She has a mime mask on her face.
She has a security bowman headset on her ears. <----
She is wearing PDA-Shade (Mime).
She has minor bruising.
She has pale skin.

...?
...?
*---------*
Lolli Usuarzan says, "Stop."
Shade frowns. <---- Runs away into maintenance
Shade fires her finger gun! <---- As I turned the corner in maintenance

The mime did not signal whatsoever that they did not want confrontation as I was standing away from them as they broke into medical storage for whatever reason may be, simply staring and then frowning at me as I finally called for security soon running off into maintenance where I pulled my sword out prior entering in hopes I wouldn't immediately get destroyed as I attempted to follow them and update the mimes location, which I did because Celeron CPU TM, which then the finger gun trick hit me and they removed my headset and cuffed me, then dragging me to oldmedbay, prepping me for brainwashing but not before an assistant luckily saw this go down and the RD and three other assistants had come to my rescue as they took down the mime. Keep in mind security didn't show up for a good chunk of time as this happened before the finally got the mimes in cuffs and dragged them off.
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"Admin PM from-R3dtaile:I'm curious why you were doing security officer work to begin with, really. Security is surprisingly well staffed this time. But, investigating further since logs do support them attacking first.",
From what I know and heard from other people, security was either lackluster or just not in for it to do their job. Security was "Well staffed" but quality control of those staff members was horrendous, even during the situation as I stated before were just slow. With the added facts of Julio mentioning the security gear and ID stolen off a brain dead officer, and the warden doing nude picture news feeds, it was pretty bad just in general.
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Admin PM from-R3dtaile: Why were you following who might've been dangerous and why did you pull a weapon out first around someone you assumed to be dangerous who clearly was spooked into fighting.",
This is where is kind of loses me, I didn't inherently see them as a threat to my well-being as they ran off, and for holding my sword I might as well hold it out if they do surprise in the darkness of maintenance if they did attack me which they did.
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Admin PM from-R3dtaile: Intent matters. You expressed belief that you were going to be in conflict, so you had your weapon drawn, when the conflict that arose you really had nothing invested into the situation to warrant following them. I know chaplains start the shift off with equipment that allows them to be dangerous in their own right, but it's not their job to go about pursuing said threats. Hell, logs even support them leaving after you told them to stop. You followed. To wrap this up, this is a minor, albeit, definite case of valid hunting. You were reasonable in telling them to stop, but you following them, and drawing your weapon with the intent to fight, like you said you were, is where you went awry. The fact they left when you told them to supports that they weren't seeking conflict and were willing to cooperate, at least somewhat. There's a lot of context to what happened, and it'll be expressed in the note, but, please. This is hardly a complete joke, and believing someone's not going to retaliate to someone pulling a weapon and following them, is silly. I understand knowing that the mime matched the description provided from security, but it's not like the station was in shambles, nor were they truly fucking up the statio. Security was more than adequately staffed, there was no need to pursue someone who wasn't outright a threat to you. Please be more careful about your actions in the future. This situation got far too out of hand, and from our very rules: Rule 7.1: Do not abandon your job to search out, hunt for, or attack antagonists unless it is related to your department's field of work, or unless you or nearby crew-members are under a direct and immediate threat from an antagonist. There are of course, plenty of circumstances that wave this rule, but, from whta I've gathered, this situation does not warrant the wave. They weren't rampaging, they cooperated with your request to leave, you pursued them with a weapon drawn.
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"Intent matters. You expressed belief that you were going to be in conflict, so you had your weapon drawn, when the conflict that arose you really had nothing invested into the situation to warrant following them.",
Intent does in fact matter, I'm pretty sure the mime was just trying to get me to follow them, which they did, and had clearly used the mime technique finger bang to quietly capture me and brainwash me with the kit they had bought which wow was insanely effective. But this is just a seriously bad excuse that the mime got trashed on by three assistants and the RD. And I had very much warranted following them after hearing they stole security gear, and watched them try to hack and break into medbay, if I probably didn't follow them and reported their location they would've just kept freeloading.
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"This is hardly a complete joke, and believing someone's not going to retaliate to someone pulling a weapon and following them, is silly. I understand knowing that the mime matched the description provided from security, but it's not like the station was in shambles, nor were they truly fucking up the statio. Security was more than adequately staffed, there was no need to pursue someone who wasn't outright a threat to you. Please be more careful about your actions in the future.",
In all honestly, from what I remember the mime actually never saw me draw my sword funnily enough because they were gone waiting in maintenance to silence me and brainwash me after connecting the dots a bit. The description wasn't provided from security, nor was the station not in shambles, we had non-stop bombing happening all shift, and saying security was more than adequately staffed is right, then again bring up quality control here, they weren't doing their job or just extremely slow. While yes, pursuing someone that wasn't an outright threat to me but a concern to the well-being of everyone else, I'm going to follow and report the person who is breaking into places, hacking, and stealing items off people as it's just a flight-risk given all the IC information I knew at the time.
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"This situation got far too out of hand, and from our very rules: Rule 7.1: Do not abandon your job to search out, hunt for, or attack antagonists unless it is related to your department's field of work, or unless you or nearby crew-members are under a direct and immediate threat from an antagonist.",
I wasn't abandoning my job, I didn't have a job. I'm a chaplain who is either to handle cult, revenants, and or purify stuff which was needed. I wasn't going out of my way to search out for the mime, I saw them hacking and followed and report their location to security. I really feel like how it states to search out, is very convoluted because in my case, yes you could bend it toward like I'm valid hunting. I get that the whole point of the game is that loss is created to have fun obviously, and yes I did lose and almost get brain washed, I wasn't going to cry about it. Was I going to struggle, yeah, it creates conflict, and I may seem like an idiot here and I probably do for following them but I certainly wasn't going out of my way to hunt or kill them.
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"They weren't rampaging, they cooperated with your request to leave, you pursued them with a weapon drawn.",
They were rampaging actually, hacking, breaking into places as they pleased, generally, uncontrolled. They didn't cooperate nor did I ask them to leave, they just ran off so I followed. Again, I'm highly confident they didn't see me draw my weapon. Their was one point where I did draw it as I came up and put it away immediately.
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PM to-Admins: Abandoning my job when I have no real job to do is quite not making sense, while saying they weren't seeking conflict is a good point it doesn't excuse the fact of me having high fears that they were the bomber who in end did bomb multiple places. Not in shambles, but a pretty high flight risk in my opinion. I feel like it would because they clearly were armed, and they were.

"Admin PM from-R3dtaile: If you were in high fears, why did you follow after them with a weapon? You've not given me a good enough reason to warrant that, when they left after you told them to stop. "in end did bomb multiple places" doesn't really justify it since, at the time were you certain they were the one who did it?",
High fears was completely taken out of context here, in my opinion and generally dilutes into Chase using OOC information I obviously didn't know at the time to and IC situation where my perspective is completely different.
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"Admin PM from-R3dtaile: You had no beef in the situation and again, the mime was cooperative with your request, then you followed suit with a weapon. They retaliated in kind . It's not a damn good justification. like you think it is. Your life was not at risk until you followed after them with intent expecting violence.",
Then the ticket was and it went from being a minor case of validhunting to a Heavy-severity note. I honestly feel like a lot of stuff has just been left out or bent here, because if you read between the lines, and generally I see that the situation is the mime ahelped because they got trashed on after being caught kidnapping me to brainwash me. This was maybe, three minutes of my time telling the mime to stop, which they ran and I followed, and got kidnapped. I really do not see that as valid hunting but just loss, it's part of the game and I don't really care. I play traitor to have assistants or non-security personnel try and disarm or even stop a person with a desword trying to mind their own business. Is it just the number of people who are involved, or just the person who decides to ahelp that an assistant made them lose? I find this just very grey because even having three assistants and an RD come to my rescue, why wouldn't they get tickets for valid hunting? I was told to not follow people in the future and not come at them aggressively, so I will hold that to my heart but I disagree to this entire ticket. I see too many holes or grey/OOC information that was applied to my situation.

[Redtail]

I mean, you had no reason to follow the mime, they were cooperative with leaving. You have a history of validhunty behavior, and this falls in the same vein as valid hunting IMO. I covered as much context in the note as I could. You literally admit that you were going into maint with the intent of getting into conflict when the mime left when you told them too. I don't particularly believe the note should be lifted. I distinctly remember checking exact coordinates of where the exact shooting happened, too. And a lot of situations like these are in fact grey areas. It's in fact, made less grey because of your history, which is what helped me see this as validhunting.

[Krzyzstof_K]

I didn't have no reason to follow the mime, and they weren't cooperative, they literally ran. I may have a P2W history which was addressed 2-3 months prior, but I do not come on every day to validhunt people at all. Intent of protecting myself versus the intent to literally go out of my way to kill them is a big difference. Now yes it may seem like bait to run after the with a sword, and two neither of us had lights, and medbay south maintenance from memory was dark, I'm completely sure they didn't see me run after them with a sword. Albeit the mime literally set up at a corner of maintenance and kidnapped me non-lethally then prepping to brainwash me, just because the mime said they didn't have it planned doesn't mean it was, you just went on their word for it basically. I'm pretty sure this is just a case of someone crying over their antag rep.

[Redtail]

If you wanted to protect yourself why did you follow them in the first place? that's an aggressive action, especially with your weapon drawn. The note can stay, please calm down the validhunting.