In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

GrayRachnid
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In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by GrayRachnid »

Hi, this post is to bring up a discussion about rule 3.6 Do not intentionally commit suicide to avoid IC punishment or for cringey "an hero" moments (e.g., killing yourself in the permabrig/offing yourself after making a long, drawn-out play about how you're gonna off yourself because you're sad). Doing so will result in either a server ban or identity ban. Just to be clear, I have no problems with this rule existing on the RP server or existing in general as suiciding can be pretty cringey.

There is a lot of meme potential with suiciding but that's besides the point I want to make. I want to highlight suiciding in situations in which you know you your place in the round is over. Example, before being caught for permabrigging and not wanting to escape. Stuck in a place you can't escape and with little to no hope of escaping. Living a miserable life as a nugget or being tortured. Being asked to fill out paperwork for maint access or to be borged. Etc, etc. There's a few scenarios where I think suiciding is the first natural response to what happens in the game, and the fact that we know this is a game and that suiciding is just another way to remove yourself from the round shouldn't remove such a feature.

I also know that 'ghosting' is a thing and technically i'm allowed to ghost but not suicide. Ghosting is also another thing you could do and you could argue that you should just do that instead but I know that while technically I can ghost, I know that admins would treat it the same as suicide and just throw rule 3.6 at me again.

My point, I know the rules are being re-written as mentioned by Izzy so I wanted to bring this rule up for discussion in case it carries over to the new ruleset. While i'm not completely against a no-suicide rule, I'd be happy to see it removed as restrictions are already placed on ghost-role suiciders by code(since that was the primary concern, I believe). There is also another rule in regards to people throwing themselves out of the airlock to circumvent the suicide/cryo restrictions(Rule 5.6) so there really is no downside to removing this rule for the main server. Despite calling Cit-main MRP, it's pretty clear that MRP is actually defined by the way players play on the server rather than the way the rules/admins want you to play. Even admins eventually cave in and bend to the way the community acts/plays on the server so the rules should do so as well.

I'll re-iterate again that this post is for bringing up a discussion about the rule and not to cause trouble. I think everyone should get a say in talking about it but I deeply appreciate if admins voice their opinion the most. My goal with this thread is to read a conclusion that the majority can be happy with, I don't need to be the one happy with the conclusion as long as everyone else likes what is being proposed/discussed.

Nethaufer
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by Nethaufer »

For one there's a cryo pod in perma brig for a reason, and is the intended method for leaving. Ghosting is identical to suiciding in regards to rule 3.6. So no it's not allowed either. If you're made a nugget or are being tortured, ahelp it as both of those are likely from a don't be a dick or a prefbreak.

GrayRachnid
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by GrayRachnid »

Codewise, there is no difference between Cryo and suiciding so why is it still against the rules?

ForrestWick
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by ForrestWick »

Suiciding doesn't re open a job slot. Cryo does.

GrayRachnid
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by GrayRachnid »

My bad, forgot about the part of it. However, if you're in a situation where cryo isn't an option and you want out of the round? Also, assistants are on an unlimited job slot so there shouldn't be anything wrong with them suiciding.

VARKA & Selyn
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by VARKA & Selyn »

I think you're missing an important part of the rule itself, which I'm going to bold and underline;
3.6 Do not intentionally commit suicide to avoid IC punishment or for cringey "an hero" moments (e.g., killing yourself in the permabrig/offing yourself after making a long, drawn-out play about how you're gonna off yourself because you're sad). Doing so will result in either a server ban or identity ban.

That seems pretty clear-cut to me. Let's say you hypothetically jump through some portal with nothing but your underwear, a knife, and nobody even knows and cares you're gone, landing in some frozen hellscape where you're sure to die of exposure in a matter of minutes. Nobody's going to hold it against you if you decide to log out or ghost when the character is good as dead already. There's no need to go committing suicide over it, even if your character could make themselves bleed out if they wanted.

For other situations, Nethaufer said it best already. It's either an IC consequence and cryo is provided, and/or you should be ahelping because somebody is being an asshole. Or maybe it's a bug if you happen to get teleported and stripped whilst just walking down a hallway.

ForrestWick
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by ForrestWick »

Gonna disagree with Killian because apparently gay baby jailing without cryo options is now a valid option toward antags. With no.way to escape.

Nethaufer
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by Nethaufer »

ForrestWick wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:25 am
Gonna disagree with Killian because apparently gay baby jailing without cryo options is now a valid option toward antags. With no.way to escape.

Keep it to the complaint and don't bog down discussion elsewhere.

GrayRachnid
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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by GrayRachnid »

Nethaufer wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:34 am
ForrestWick wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:25 am
Gonna disagree with Killian because apparently gay baby jailing without cryo options is now a valid option toward antags. With no.way to escape.

Keep it to the complaint and don't bog down discussion elsewhere.
I don't think that belongs only in the complaint, that's a valid part of the discussion to bring up since this rule is the one references in that case. Infact, the reason I made this threat is mostly due to the ruling. If the complaint is marked as valid and the ruling was wrong, then yes, it can be taken out as a discussion point.
VARKA & Selyn wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:33 am
I think you're missing an important part of the rule itself, which I'm going to bold and underline;
3.6 Do not intentionally commit suicide to avoid IC punishment or for cringey "an hero" moments (e.g., killing yourself in the permabrig/offing yourself after making a long, drawn-out play about how you're gonna off yourself because you're sad). Doing so will result in either a server ban or identity ban.

That seems pretty clear-cut to me. Let's say you hypothetically jump through some portal with nothing but your underwear, a knife, and nobody even knows and cares you're gone, landing in some frozen hellscape where you're sure to die of exposure in a matter of minutes. Nobody's going to hold it against you if you decide to log out or ghost when the character is good as dead already. There's no need to go committing suicide over it, even if your character could make themselves bleed out if they wanted.

For other situations, Nethaufer said it best already. It's either an IC consequence and cryo is provided, and/or you should be ahelping because somebody is being an asshole. Or maybe it's a bug if you happen to get teleported and stripped whilst just walking down a hallway.
I understand the rule, but i'm saying it should be removed. The rule has no reason to exist when the only mechanical difference with cryo is opening a job slot. In fact, I don't imagine it's too difficult to go to the suicide_act code and make it open the job slot similar to how cryo does it.

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Re: In Regards to the No Suicide rule for Cit-Main.

Post by ForFoxSake »

Nethaufer wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:38 pm
Ghosting is identical to suiciding in regards to rule 3.6.
So I read this and immediately thought: "Hey, there's a glaring contradiction in the rules here. Forbidding ghosting could potentially result in a prefbreak!"
Specifically, from how I had memorized the rules, 3.6 being used to prevent someone ghosting would have been a direct contradiction to rule 9.6 as I had from memory recalled them as "Do not ghost/suicide to avoid consequences." and "Do not force people into situations they are OOCly uncomfortable with."

...Then I went back to the rules and read what 9.6 actually says.
"Using vore mechanics on someone without OOC consent is a bannable offense."
That's right! I'd completely misremembered the don't be a creep rule. What I thought said "don't force people into prefbreak situations" actually says "Do not force people into vore situations."
So, imagine that. The rules as they stand say: Gay baby jail (as it isn't a vore mechanic) is a totally valid tactic and is free to be used on whoever, and ghosting out of a gay baby jail is a bannable offence.
I was initially slightly surprised that there was such a huge contradiction. I'm even more surprised that contradiction isn't there, because if someone locked me in an inescapable situation (be it a room or otherwise), I'd totally use the suicide or ghost verbs as they were made to be used.
Even on the RP server, where committing suicide is much much less acceptable, I would still laugh at anyone attempting to enforce these rules exactly as they're written.

Edit: I should probably clarify, I'm pointing out the fact these rules do have good intentions behind them, but in execution could in turn go against the very intentions they were put in place for. At the very least, anyone going by the word of the rules instead of their intention right now, is just being absurd.

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