Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

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Should we port Paradise surgery?

 
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Jared12100
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Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

Post by Jared12100 »

A fairly massive change to medbay; port the surgical and internal medical aspects of medical from Paradise Station to Citadel. Essentially this new system is a far more indepth and "realisitic" (in lack of a better word) form of medbay that not only makes damage and such far more difficult to deal with but also allows doctors to be doctors without people running past them.

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Surgery

The new system would add the following:
Organ damage: this can be anything from a popped lungs (which causes build up of O2 damage, caused by being in environments with no air) to liver damage caused from drinking to heart damage caused by a bullet that hit your chest. The amount of things here is extreme so I won't go over all of them, but basically all your organs can now be damaged and as such will stop functioning properly which leads to complications.

Infections: Related to surgery and organ damage, organs and limbs can be infected if not treated in a proper sterile environment, causing damage build up and ultimately leading to dead limbs which can cause toxin damage and need to be removed/replaced.

Broken bones: perhaps the most basic of everything here, getting bashed by things or other brute damages can cause bones to break. Broken bones can lead to internal bleeding or other issues until they're fixed.

Internal bleeding: Bleeding, but on the inside, caused by sharp things the penetrate the body (like bullets) internal bleeding wont stop on its own and must be fixed surgically, quickly.

If I were to explain every nook and cranny of the new system I would be writing a small book, but overall advanced surgery and medicine I feel would up both the RP of medbay, the game play of medbay, and the general usefulness of doctors on the server. Anyone can slap on a band-aid, but not anyone can do open heart surgery.

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise
Welp, here we go again.

Slayerhero90
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RE: Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

Post by Slayerhero90 »

One thing I've learned since my time on Bay a couple years ago is that realism does not equal better RP. And I've always cited Bay's medical system as proof of that. Where's the RP when you're on knockout gas for several minutes, waiting for a doctor to finish fixing you, or even more if that doctor has, say, a conversation going on, or is being kept informed of other medical issues?

What I still call Baymed doesn't add more RP. It adds more mechanics, most of which take people out of the RP.

As for making doctors more useful? Sure. I'll cede that point. But it's at the cost of everyone else's functionality. You must pay respect to the notion that a medical system fit its combat gameplay. After all, violence is the primary source of work for medbay to do. Combat in TG is meant to be fast and decided by who drops first; where beyond slipping/quick incapacitation mechanics, raw damage and speed are your friends. Bay (or Paradise, I guess) combat revolves around a skeleton of roleplay, slower pace, and an emphasis on pain to determine who's going to lose the fight. Baymed was designed for a level of RP where you /don't/ wanna fight if you can help it. And that's not TG and that's not Citadel.

I haven't played Medical Doctor on Citadel, so I just have to trust you that it's a job bereft of things to do. But Medical is about keeping people in the game and I do not believe that Medical's role in the game should yield to Medical Players' desire for more engaging gameplay. Instead, a solution should be sought for how to add more Medical Doctor gameplay without infringing on other players' ability to actually play the game.

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Jared12100
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RE: Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

Post by Jared12100 »

To summarize medbay on Citadel (and by extension TG): you open the door and whoever has dragged the body to you has already run past and done one of 3 things: A, put them in the sleeper and fixed them in 5 seconds, B: put them in the cryo tube and fixed them in 5 seconds, or C: the person was dead and dragged to cloning without even considering defib. To me this kind of medical is just meh, bland and empty. If you compare it to the depth of other roles it's pretty severely lacking. And ideally? You shouldn't /want/ to be fighting in the first place. Citadel isn't an LRP server right? Why the hell are you running around looking to fight for no reason? If anything, paradise has generally more combat to it then Citadel (given they run constant secret at higher pops, you get stuff like nukies, wizard, etc, more often.) and yet they have a slower, more complicated medical instead of just "slap em in cryo for 10 seconds and he's good for anything, if not, clone then cryo". It makes doctor 95% useless and makes medbay extremely boring.

"I haven't played Medical Doctor on Citadel, so I just have to trust you that it's a job bereft of things to do. But Medical is about keeping people in the game and I do not believe that Medical's role in the game should yield to Medical Players' desire for more engaging gameplay. Instead, a solution should be sought for how to add more Medical Doctor gameplay without infringing on other players' ability to actually play the game." If you wanna keep people in the game, if that's priority #1 then why not just allow respawning? Saving a life doesn't have to be perfect realism, but slapping a bandaid on a chest that took a full 3 shots point blank from a shotgun? That's just ridiculous. You're not infringing on others ability to play the game, you're giving players a better gameplay experience while also increasing the value of your life. Don't waste it. In the end however, cloning is still the same. Thus if medbay can't save you they can clone you and move on. Effectively keeping that more or less the same.

https://youtu.be/8ci2hj7CSHI?t=113 is more or less the current medical system. Just slap on that flex tape and he's good to go.
Last edited by Jared12100 on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welp, here we go again.

deathride58
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RE: Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

Post by deathride58 »

Cit's main server is indeed LRP, as that's what the playerbase has shifted towards. Fighting 4noraisin is usually frowned upon on LRP servers outside of ragecages, but if you've played on the main server for a round or two, you'd know how hectic medbay can be in this kind of environment. Having to spend twenty minutes in the medbay is the last thing anyone would want with a codebase where slipping on water leaves almost enough time to be beaten into crit.

Someone was actually working on porting bones specifically from para, but due to numerous factors, including negative response from players during a testmerge, the PR was closed. During the testmerge, quite a few seasoned players opted to kill patients and clone them instead of going out of their way to perform surgery, which, while being an amusing sight to behold, isn't really the kind of result most players would want in a game as chaotic as ss13.

It should also be taken into account that TG and Paradise are completely different codebases Porting anything from one major codebase to another is just gonna cause a mountain of issues due to differences in procs, differences in how the codebases handle bodyparts, differences in how the codebases handle damage, differences in how the codebases handle organs, etc. Features like arteries, bones, tendons, infections, etc, would all be much better off coded from scratch rather than directly ported. Additionally, adding more complexities to the medical system may result in severe incompatibilities further down the line, as Citadel mirrors PRs that were merged upstream.

Also, enabling respawning would do nothing but enable metagaming. The main server is focused around gameplay, being able to simply respawn would make medbay next to useless, resulting in poor gameplay for everyone involved. Medbay's primary job is to attempt to keep people in rounds, which creates a dynamic between antags and medbay. Making medbay visits last longer would be a direct buff to antags, and a direct nerf to medbay, on top of forcing the patient into a state where they're locked into a room, unable to observe events going on in the round or interact at all.

tl;dr: the fast-paced nature of the codebase conflicts with the idea, players didn't like the idea when it was implemented and put into practice, and differences between codebases causes issues with the idea being implemented.

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Jared12100
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RE: Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

Post by Jared12100 »

The main server being offically called LRP is legitimately surprising based on two things: The first being how much depth is put into the RP standards in the rules showthread.php?tid=150&tid=150 (which was posted by the host, Jay, no less) and second based on how /most/ people tend to be on the server. Especially if you compare it to other LRP servers like hippie station I can't really think of Citadel as LRP... But if you insist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That said I never said this would be an easy, fast process. But one I think in the long term would be beneficial. If nothing else it makes medbay more interesting and as mentioned earlier the ultimate factor of if one could be revived doesn't change: cloning is the same. And if it couldn't be ported directly then why not code a variant of it?

Overall I just think it's a shame that compared to everything else in the game medbay and medicine is so painfully quick and easy that the role of doctor is mostly useless when it doesn't have to be.
Welp, here we go again.

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cebutris
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RE: Port Paradise Station Surgery and Organ damage

Post by cebutris »

Don't get me wrong, I adore Bay's medical system, and I think it's so much more immersive than /tg/'s, but a critical part of /tg/med is that's it's balanced around the code. It's so much harder to fix things on Bay than on /tg/, which makes sense there, where roleplay is enforced, but it wouldn't make sense here, where you can have traitors attacking anyone that gets in their way without any repercussions.

(Yes, I know Bay and Paradise have different systems, but the idea is the same)
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