Complaint regarding Snow n chrysanthemums

[Nethaufer]

Cameron basically hit the nail on the head here.

[Neinbox]

Heya, Neinbox/Uwasv Sidanelv the CE here.

So... Whew. There's quite a bit here. I'll try to scoot in and go through this as best I can to clarify some things. First and foremost of course is that I keep my IC and OOC strictly separated and although some IC things may OOCly irritate me, they have no bearing on how I handle things ICly or OOCly.


From what I know, non-stationbound crew are not property in the same sense that they are objects that have no say in things. They have a contract, yes. But I do not believe that it makes them objects. They still have lives outside of their work and they still have rights. Stationbounds however, do not. They are entirely property and belong to NT no matter what.

That aside, Cerberus was taken apart, as Abatha Ru the RD stated, so that they could talk to Cerberus without the constraints of laws and such. It was purely for ease of communication. They could have brought the locked-down borg into the meeting, but decided to remove the MMI from the chassis so Cerberus could speak freely. That was the main reason to doing this.

In regards to Mike's involvement, I found it kind of BS that they were pulled away from medical who as far as everyone else was concerned, was under-powered either due to incompetence or firing or otherwise. Mike signed up for Medical, they should have stuck with it- especially with threat of a possible riot.

For the crew, that was also very poor handling. As I've stated, Cerberus is company property through and through and they risk losing everything for attempting to defend/revenge it. But, this is more looking at it from a rational OOC standpoint. Realistically, organics are not rational beings and will fiercely defend whatever they have an attachment to even though it may be a mere object. Yes, Cerberus is an object, again, considering their condition.

As for the amount drank and the condition of the patients, I remember hearing that one of them- I believe Faux, considering the organs involved- were more or less experiencing complete liver failure from what the CMO had said by the time they reached medical's doors.


Moving on to the IC portion now, I will explain Sid's actions to clarify things:
At first, yes, he was all for the decommissioning because there was a severe lack of information and the meeting was handled poorly and with emotion from everyone instead of putting facts out on the table and taking turns to clarify what exactly was going on and getting the information straight. Right off the bat, it was made to sound though as if Cerberus had deliberately poisoned someone and it really looked like the borg had allowed a civilian, no matter who it was, to trespass.

There's no doubt that Sid holds a strong dislike for the synthetic (or synthetics in general as he's extremely hesitant to interact with them due to troublesome encounters in the past with the majority of synthetics) for his interactions in the past with them involving what he felt was mistreatment. But he's been giving it small chances and relaxing a little more day by day; ever since Cerberus has pulled themselves from medical and been going into other departments, it seems though as if his relation to the borg has been improving somewhat and doesn't mind them as much anymore. He is still very wary of it mind you, however. So when he hears how someone was dying because of Cerberus' direct involvement, it put him on the defensive once more because of how questionably Cerberus prioritized their laws. Regarding the trespassing, it was found very irritating to Sid that Cerberus, a security borg, decided to take it upon themselves to enter engineering with the intent of investigating an engineering matter on their own instead of asking their AI, or even him nor the engineering team who already had the issue figured out. It was just a simple grid check, and OOCly I have not yet figured out how to shorten the process so the brown-out was prolonged for however long it was deemed necessary by NT.

What added insult to injury was that Mcfall was accompanying Cerberus and was literally at their side the entire time the synthetic was within Engineering's main hall, and made it seem like Cerberus had taken upon itself to invite a civilian into the department without explanation nor permission. Sid takes his job seriously, and he feels that Engineering is a very unsafe place to be for the untrained- and no one can really dispute that considering what engineers have to deal with on a daily basis. So overall, it appeared that Cerberus was attempting to take things into their own hands and ignoring him.

Originally, Sid wanted to actually take Cerberus out of action by temporarily decommissioning them for the safety of the crew, stating that he wanted to send the MMI to Central so they could decide what to do with the apparently faulty asset as it is NT's property, and not the team's say to destroy company property unless there was a severe immediate threat, although the supposed intentional poisoning did not make things in the stationbound's favor at this point in time. Not to mention the fact that I wanted to try and avoid what felt like a cruel PK OOCly. When Sid had received more information on both the poisoning (Faux knew what he was in for and was in control of what he was consuming really) and the trespass, he actually gave it more thought. By now Sid has suggested that to appease both the crew and the Tribunal, that they should treat it like a security matter. If Faux did not take responsibility of his actions due to neglect or simply not knowing, they would take Cerberus out of commission and send them to Central for review. But since the Sergal wasn't, they should put Cerberus back out on the floor and let Central know that they should take a look at the case and see if any tweaking needed to be done considering the tensions that were raised over it.

He was still mildly irritated over Cerberus entering his department to investigate matters on their own. Sure, Cyborgs have the ability to go as they please, but it still felt like they were stepping on the toes of engineering to handle the matters themselves. And although at this point in time Jermaine had been clarified to as of trespassing instead of being invited in by the synthetic, Sid still questioned Cerberus and asked why they didn't prioritize their job with an obvious infraction over their own curiosity. As stated, Jermaine was by the cyborg's side for the entire fifteen seconds that they were in engineering's main hall and close to the doors. All it would have taken is a command of "please leave the department, you do not have permission to be here, you have five seconds to remove yourself" and open the doors with a click. But instead they idled there with the Sergal at their side, which is what made it appear like they were invited in the first place.

Personally I have seen Cerberus improve and despite earlier interactions that made me OOCly a bit uncertain about the character, I allowed things to play out and have thus far been enjoying my new interactions with them. I also do not mind the player OOCly, despite my limited interaction with them. There were issues but I've noticed that they have since been addressed and improved upon, so I don't see why they still can't continue to do so. As for whether or not that the original complaint of this being an OOC grudge of Snow upon Kered, I find that it is in fact NOT a meta. While this thread is being handled poorly from both players and third parties as well with lashing out and pointing fingers, I can say with certainty that it is all simply their character Tashi acting in their typical harsh manner. They have very little tolerance for things and the health of crew was indeed involved, and like Sid, they do not like to take chances.



Everyone knows that Sid and Tashi hate each other's guts and imagine strangling one another by the throat, but OOCly? We have pleasant and relaxed conversation with one another through PMs laughing about how much of a pain in the ass our characters are being with one another. I've noticed a lot of people in this server have a difficulty with separating IC from OOC which can be acceptable seeing how some characters can be self-inserts/OC's/fursonas whatever which is completely understandable, but people should take example and understand that your IC actions do in fact, have IC consequences. If you do something IC your character will be judged upon that, and it should be taken into account that they will respond accordingly. Sid gets what he deserves no matter how bad I feel for him at times. Everyone is quick to be accused of OOC salt and metagrudging (seriously, I would know as I have been accused on several accounts), when in reality people have characters and those characters will- or should- act in ways that the characters are meant to realistically react. It is not a meta if a character treats another according to past experiences in a way that the character sees fit. What's the point in having canon extended rounds otherwise? In this case, it is Tashi seeing Cerberus as a dangerous liability to have on board because a crewmember became severely ill. The consequence for her action of wanting to take action was denial, and that's that.


Long and short of it is, no one was in the wrong for their IC interactions here and both you and your character should take responsibility for your actions, and to keep IC separated from OOC as best you can. We're all here to play and enjoy a game with one another, after all.

Hopefully this cleared a few things up!

[Midnight_117]

hey idk if this helps but here you go, this was me asking for said drinks in sec lobby or whatever.

[snow n' chrysanthemums]

I think the crux of the issue here is that you used your disagreements with Cerberus in previous rounds to justify disassembling them in this round--despite them not having done anything wrong.

If it's true that you:
1. Know silicon law
2. Know that Faux asked for the drink to be made

There is no reason aside from metagrudging to order the disassembly of the cyborg. Yes--it is still metagrudging to act on problems you've had with a character from previous rounds in order to justify gross mistreatment of them in a following round, even if you don't know who plays them.

Regardless of the IC status of cyborgs, it remains that you had a player disassembled without a compelling reason to do so for reasons outside of the current round--extremely likely to be metagrudging at worst and at best proving that you're ignorant of the laws silicons are bound by and not suited to be a head of staff who has the power to act against a player with that lack of knowledge.

You show no understanding or remorse for impacting another player's round without good cause, and that should worry anyone reading this thread and your responses to it.

Please be aware that it was the command staff as a whole who ordered it with consensus. While Samdup may be the inital complainer, Sid (The CE), and the HOP (Name I can't remember) all did state doubts about Cerberus. My IC argument is that regardless of cause, the borg decided to feed a crew member lethal amounts of alcohol, and when questioned about the quantity of said drink lowered the value so to Samdup it appeared the borg was being economical with the truth when no longer lawed.

Welp, you done and turned this hostile when I was merely stating the parts that made me uneasy in my second point. Hot headed much? Seriously, it isn't helping your case when your basically saying this when the character is well received.
Image

Also, I think my response is good enough considering it really isn't kered that needed an eight hour breather earlier. This is nothing more than a temper tantrum at best to attempt to make yourself look good and throw me under the bus for defending someone that was obviously wronged by you. Not going to post here again, I will just let nature take its course.

A character being "well-recieved" has no basis on if they should be retired, or PK'd.

Please do not equate me of a making a serious baseless accusation because you cannot read the verb before an accusation that is used to indicate possibility, that therefore makes it a hypothetical accusation that has yet to be leveled rather than an accusation which has been leveled.
The intent behind the supposed accusatory statement was to draw a similar possible allegation to make the accuser understand the weight of the feel the weight of the accusation, of which in my opinion they did not understand. It is obvious from your response alone that you Stellar, do get the weight of the accusation, but so far only when it is pointed at you. Were the accusation simply be "Samdup is unreasonable because of X,Y, and Z" I would be perfectly amicable to changing the character if there was such logic behind it. The only accusation I have received so far however, is "Samdup is meta-grudging! Therefore Samdup's player should be punished for meta-grudging". I understand that you are upset about this situation, but the goal of this is not to place a who needs to be punished, but to find the cause of such an emotional trigger and prevent it.


The majority complaint is no longer about how the player character needs to change, rather an attempt to smear the player behind the character because you do not agree with them.

I will state this for the sake of clarity: There is no "meta-grudge" due to what happened because Samdup was not okay with it. Were I, the player, genuinely concerned about a borg deliberately breaking laws, I would have ahelped an admin. That, has been the entire basis of my argument this entire time. Were the borg deliberately rule-lawyering, most likely at some point an adminhelp would be made and as such, administrative action should have been taken in the form of inquiry (Freezing him, asking him questions, and telling the reporter that it has been resolved). Which I explicitly do not remember happening (if an admin would correct me if wrong with relevant post, that'd be great).

Final note, words cause actions which cause repercussions. Given that the administrative team has not taken a decision on final action and explained such an action, I would like to ask everyone here if the wording used by some others are the result of the inflammatory witch hunt statements some have written:




While these are implied in the wording, and sticks and stones shouldn't break anyone's bones ( Or as they say, "He who has a chicken gut and mice heart, deserves what heaven should inflict upon him in his lack of temperament). It has had the effect of the original writing inflaming the general opinion. The original accusers, either through malice or misunderstanding, have turned this into an attempt to de-legitimize the actions of the HOS without showing the reasons and causes for escalation, of which were mostly justified. I believe an public apology to Allakai, written in discord and/or forum, is necessary.

[Te.name]

I never asked for them to be destroyed. To say such is false. I do not like players being killed or destroyed unless there is very very good reason.

You are completely lying about this, yes you said for me to be carded, but you also said for me to be killed.
Multiple times


So this story the one I wish to focus on because I think it is the best example of why this player should not be a command staff and it is the one I have the most data on. I was the AI, Astral One and they were Kaalii the HOP. I got an ion law "0*%&. Greed is good, the crew should amass wealth to encourage productivity.", I decided to follow this law by asking Kaalii to place her ID in the banking console, giving me access to it. I then activated 15 new accounts with a high starting balance with the intent to give them to the crew, giving them wealth. Kaalii instantly respondedbefore even asking for my laws I was carded despite the fact a simple law change would have solved the issue and Kaallii could have easily suspended the accounts. And she continued screaming and said to security I had a 0 law which was a complete lie and based off of nothing command luckily did not kill me and I was restored, Kallii continued to scream the entire round on command radio about it before the shuttle came around 10 minutes or so later and she shot my hologram with lethals on the way out. This clearly shows they didn't care if I was killed or destroyed and they were actively pushing for my destruction, I highly recommend a command staff ban.

[Neinbox]

Final note, words cause actions which cause repercussions. Given that the administrative team has not taken a decision on final action and explained such an action, I would like to ask everyone here if the wording used by some others are the result of the inflammatory witch hunt statements some have written:




While these are implied in the wording, and sticks and stones shouldn't break anyone's bones ( Or as they say, "He who has a chicken gut and mice heart, deserves what heaven should inflict upon him in his lack of temperament). It has had the effect of the original writing inflaming the general opinion. The original accusers, either through malice or misunderstanding, have turned this into an attempt to de-legitimize the actions of the HOS without showing the reasons and causes for escalation, of which were mostly justified. I believe an public apology to Allakai, written in discord and/or forum, is necessary.

I never asked for them to be destroyed. To say such is false. I do not like players being killed or destroyed unless there is very very good reason.

You are completely lying about this, yes you said for me to be carded, but you also said for me to be killed.
Multiple times


So this story the one I wish to focus on because I think it is the best example of why this player should not be a command staff and it is the one I have the most data on. I was the AI, Astral One and they were Kaalii the HOP. I got an ion law "0*%&. Greed is good, the crew should amass wealth to encourage productivity.", I decided to follow this law by asking Kaalii to place her ID in the banking console, giving me access to it. I then activated 15 new accounts with a high starting balance with the intent to give them to the crew, giving them wealth. Kaalii instantly respondedbefore even asking for my laws I was carded despite the fact a simple law change would have solved the issue and Kaallii could have easily suspended the accounts. And she continued screaming and said to security I had a 0 law which was a complete lie and based off of nothing command luckily did not kill me and I was restored, Kallii continued to scream the entire round on command radio about it before the shuttle came around 10 minutes or so later and she shot my hologram with lethals on the way out. This clearly shows they didn't care if I was killed or destroyed and they were actively pushing for my destruction, I highly recommend a command staff ban.

If this is a problem, I suggest others taking their complaints/arguments about Allakai elsewhere as this thread is specifically about Snow and Kered and is getting really off-topic now from the original complaint. Can we please handle one issue at a time?

[Te.name]

And my side of the round with Cerberus. So, at the time this first started I was in and out grabbing a bite to eat and missed most of the start so I will be starting from when I first entered the scenario. I was the AI, I first entered the scenario when I noticed Samdup bringing up previous shifts I was choosing to stay mostly out of it this time since I was still scrolling up reading what I missed, I was asked by the Overseer for my input and informed him that "directly ordering the Unit as a higher up will override all other law 2 commands" at this time the decision to decommission Cerberus was made before he was even talked to directly and at an alarming speed. CMO Samdup ordered me to order Cerberus to "Shut up" so he could not defend himself before being deconned.

Cerberus was deconed and DEER the security dogborg at the time recommended that I stop this, my interpretation of law four did not give me valid reason at this time to stop it but I informed DEER since they are not synced they could use their own interpretation if they wished to stop it.
Deer decided to disagree over the radio and was quickly ordered to stop by the HOS.

I moved my hologram to the conference room where the heads of staff were talking to Cerberus and debating further action. The HOS quickly considered two people disagreeing with securities actions over the radio and making no threats as an excuse to bring out riot control. At the same time I sent a message to CC via my emergency message function requesting an officer and informing CC that if this continues a riot may happen, I believed this mainly because of how the HOS was acting and not the crew. CC arrived and after a quick swap out of the maid uniform, made their way to the conference room and at this point I ignored most messages from my holopad since I trusted CC would handle this and it is really hard to read holopad messages.

I remained mostly out of it until I noticed that the head of security was arming Mike Harris a search and rescue for 0 reasons what so ever. They were given a radio, armor and an energy gun which even if it is on stun is still a lethal weapon as a simple button press can switch it to lethal and is why we don't allow it on code green, which it actually was at the time. Eventually, they declared after they armed security with red armory equipment and opened the tactical armor, but only after. Security began lying about Cerberus saying they broke into engineering with a civilian and refused to leave, never happened.


At this point, a bit distracted with all the chaos I noticed Harris running around with his armor. I cited law one and ordered security to have the unauthorized person return the equipment, they refused. I contacted the CC officer and the Captain and Overseer decided to just ignore them
The HOS continued to lie to command staff saying the crew was becoming more and more dangerous... I watch the HOS say he only has stun weapons while he hands Harris a laser pistol which has a lethal function. I send Deer in to confirm what I saw and they both run, I bolt them in and they comply to a search verifying that he has a laser pistol. I spend the last few minutes of the round begging the CC officer to do something and following securities orders in the shittiest way that can still be considered valid in an attempt to waste their time and prevent crew harm. Example, I would only bolt a door for a second or two unless told to keep the door bolted. Before anything more could be done the server died and had to be restarted.

[Te.name]

If this is a problem, I suggest others taking their complaints/arguments about Allakai elsewhere as this thread is specifically about Snow and Kered and is getting really off-topic now from the original complaint. Can we please handle one issue at a time?

I feel it is totally relevant as they voted to destroy Cerberus and have made similar shitty attempts to destroy silicons in the past. But if you wish I will move it over right now.
See: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2266&p=7472#p7472

[Allakai]

So this story the one I wish to focus on because I think it is the best example of why this player should not be a command staff and it is the one I have the most data on. I was the AI, Astral One and they were Kaalii the HOP. I got an ion law "0*%&. Greed is good, the crew should amass wealth to encourage productivity.", I decided to follow this law by asking Kaalii to place her ID in the banking console, giving me access to it. I then activated 15 new accounts with a high starting balance with the intent to give them to the crew, giving them wealth. Kaalii instantly respondedbefore even asking for my laws I was carded despite the fact a simple law change would have solved the issue and Kaallii could have easily suspended the accounts. And she continued screaming and said to security I had a 0 law which was a complete lie and based off of nothing command luckily did not kill me and I was restored, Kallii continued to scream the entire round on command radio about it before the shuttle came around 10 minutes or so later and she shot my hologram with lethals on the way out. This clearly shows they didn't care if I was killed or destroyed and they were actively pushing for my destruction, I highly recommend a command staff ban.

Simply pushing for my command ban makes little sense and doesnt give me much room to improve. I will say that I will understand and admit that it was an overreaction on Kaalii's side. Yet that is her character. She is an over reactionary and emotional character. That is the point of the character. I do not have the power to call for an AI's destruction and can only helplessly call for it to be carded.

Also:

around 10 minutes or so later and she shot my hologram with lethals on the way out.

That is untrue as I had misfired and was attempting to put my gun back into my holster on my person. It was entirely a misclick. I do not see how this at all warrants a command ban?

I had made a mistake that I will own up to. Yet calling for my command ban (might I add not on a player complaint about me) is an over reaction as well, no?

[HazelBailey]

An admin decision regarding this has been reached and the relevant parties spoken to in that regard. Moving to resolved.