[MAIN] Soman Bat & SectoidDan - Metagrudging / Failure to resolve a ticket adequately

[BigManClancy]

BYOND Name of complaint against: Soman Bat(Captain), SectoidDan

Your BYOND name: BigManClancy

Date of issue and round ID: 03.06.2019 RID:18053

Reason for complaint: Demoting a fellow Head over a single insult with no forewarning. (Metagrudging) (SectoidDan for his very shoddy handling of the ticket and situation)

The entire situation started when i was playing Quartermaster and the Captain (or someone else) had just switched to amber (For god knows what reason).

Someone proceeded to ask if they were allowed to make guns, and me, having played a fair bit and knowing what each of the alerts does says that "We are on amber, you are free to make guns". While that is shit wording, i meant to say that you are allowed to freely carry guns around as a civvie, things like spears, disablers, stunbatons if you get them in your hands.

The Captain immediatly butted in, claiming that they were NOT allowed to do so, even though the point of raising amber was literally the whole point of it. "There would be a confirmed threat, Sec would open-carry guns and civvies would be allowed to arm themselves". This is something i have heard echoed from many people IC and i believed i had even heard IC. But i was later informed per DMs by Redtail that my knowledge on the situation was actually wrong. But Nevertheless:
I went ahead and pulled the typical "Consult CC or the Gods" things because i was fairly certain i was in the rights. To which Captain replied with "You are incorrect. I expect professionalism and competence from my command team".
Mind you that this was a simple difference in opinions and views on something. While the Captain may have the right to order, i have the right to not share their opinion. So me, being the typical Luna that i am, decide to insult him at this point, telling him to get the stick out of his ass and making a pretty unfunny joke at the fact that the Captain is quite literally just called Captain.
https://i.imgur.com/gwGS772.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hCoNanp.jpg

Around 1-2 minutes later the Captain WORDLESSLY enters the Cargo Office where i was sitting, started tazing me and wordlessly began cuffing me, and i defended myself by batonning him, hoping to stamcrit him and then resolve the situation. That did not happen as the Captain quickly got the upper hand again and then cuffed me.

It was at this point that i reached out for an Admin, telling them that i was being arrested for just simply insulting them. (Mind you i have NOT been threatened with a demotion or any sort of action at any point in the conversation, if that had been the case i would have shut up immediatly).
Within 10 seconds my Ahelp was marked as an IC issue, so i made another ticket asking "How exactly it is an IC issue" Which was once again entirely ignored and marked as an IC issue.
Only after a third ahelp did i actually get a response from SectoidDan saying "Captain told you to be professional, you acted like a child, This is an IC consequence for your IC actions" and was promptly mocked with the typical "man up deal with it" verb. Entirely leaving me to my own devices at this point, all i really inquired at this point was the CKey of Captain to make this report and i then ghosted afterwards.
https://i.imgur.com/6eTzcAs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/g7JZMTL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZDYAASx.jpg

Now, for my reasoning as to why this is metagrudging: I have had past run-ins with Captain when they were playing HoS earlier this day, we had ordered guns as Cargo during amber and they ran in after i asked for them to open the crates, told me to just deliver them to the brig and then fucked off, literally ignoring the 3 waits (With double ! and everything) and just leaving me.
The QM and me were pretty pissed off at that and proceeded to ask the CE for emitters to open the crates ourselves, as it was IAA and we didn't want to get fucked over considering that the HoP and the Detective had been murdered at that point. So we had received an emitter to open the crates, opened them. And i assume that the HoS was not so happy about it.
Basically all my past run-ins with them have been negative.
Not to forget that metagrudging can apply to this case as this was handled very ruthlessly and with 0 understanding from the Captain, not a single word was said form the Captain until i was actually demoted. And then was mocked afterwards by them when i cryo'd
https://i.imgur.com/m0G3E7K.jpg

I am also going to provide a Video of the entire situation, as i have said in a previous thread that i will record my sessions from now on (I am willing to provide a longer video, even the full round if Staff deems that there is not enough context):https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aggubub ... e=youtu.be

I am also attaching the entire chatlog all the way up until i ghosted myself.

The reason i ultimately bring this to the forums is because i feel SectoidDan has failed to provide a satisfactory conclusion to my ticket. Closing it twice as an IC issue and making me make a third ticket to actually have me get an answer, then simply telling me "It's an IC repercussion for your childish actions". Said childish actions being a simple line of insult that i spouted once that ended in me being stripped of all my QM gear and being demoted wordlessly

[acefourm]

Usually I avoid butting into threads but I wanted to bring up that I think there is a much bigger issue of admins using the 'Marked as an IC issue' button. I dislike it because its avoiding culpability for admin actions, theres no name attached, no explanation. Just slap it and done. I've had issues with it previously and I cant make a complaint because of course you don't get a name. This is dumb, admins should be open with their decisions as I've had my shit marked as an IC issue then told by ANOTHER admin that its not but of course I cant tell them what admin told me otherwise.

Not sure if I should make a separate coverall thread, but I think this tool needs to be removed from the admin toolbox and admins should be giving even a one line explanation of their decisions.

[SomanBat]

Yes, I expect professionalism, competence, and decorum from those who choose to play command and security roles. In fact, I make an announcement to this effect at the beginning of the shift. This expectation is only held to those in command and security roles, to a lesser extent with security.

The alert was elevated to Amber due to a changeling having likely access to security, and security comms. The CE asked if he were allowed to arm engineering, to whit the QM said yes. This is not the QMs decision, it is The HoS and/or Captain's call. I informed them no, after which the QM decided to argue. This is one strike against professionalism. Per the admin involved, I was correct in my call, and had the issue been dropped there, the QM in question could have continued their round.

Now, insulting your Captain, as a command staff player, is very much unprofessional. Since you chose to go down that line, you were demoted to Cargo Technician, where such professionalism is not expected. I do not warn department heads prior to demotion, because as demonstrated, said people who end up warranting demotion tend to fight back. Which happened.


As for behavior as HoS, yes, you were told to deliver the locked crates to security, per a QMs job. I had other things to attend to. I do not unlock weapons crates in a public area like cargo, for said cargonians to paw through and select leet guns. Weapons are a security thing, the crates can be delivered to security locked, for the warden/HoS to issue to security crew. Only in times of extreme emergency should weapons be handed out to civilian crew.

If you want to play a Command role, then you are expected to behave in a professional manner. If you choose not to be professional, then yes, the Captain can demote you.

[BigManClancy]

I do not warn department heads prior to demotion, because as demonstrated, said people who end up warranting demotion tend to fight back. Which happened.

What ever happened to talking? Giving out a "Luna, if your behavior continues i will demote you." ?
You demoted me for a single line of text that you had taken a bit too personally, Luna herself is a massive fucking cunt, yes. But had you told me that a demotion was in order i would have immediatly piped down, as even i hate the hassle of being taken from a role like that.
But no, you had decided to go ahead and wordlessly taze me and demote me, 0 transparency whatsoever shown in your actions with no regard to how the other player feels when you do that to them.

there is a much bigger issue of admins using the 'Marked as an IC issue' button. I dislike it because its avoiding culpability for admin actions, theres no name attached, no explanation. Just slap it and done. I've had issues with it previously and I cant make a complaint because of course you don't get a name. This is dumb, admins should be open with their decisions as I've had my shit marked as an IC issue then told by ANOTHER admin that its not but of course I cant tell them what admin told me otherwise.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, transparency should be at the forefront of every Staff Team, be it in punishment or in informing their players what they did wrong etc.

[SomanBat]

What ever happened to talking? Giving out a "Luna, if your behavior continues i will demote you." ?
You demoted me for a single line of text that you had taken a bit too personally, Luna herself is a massive fucking cunt, yes. But had you told me that a demotion was in order i would have immediatly piped down, as even i hate the hassle of being taken from a role like that.
But no, you had decided to go ahead and wordlessly taze me and demote me, 0 transparency whatsoever shown in your actions with no regard to how the other player feels when you do that to them.

Warning a department head who has already established themselves as acting unprofessional is just giving them the forewarning needed to arm up, be annoying, fuck off to space, stage a mutiny, etc. Literally everyone says "Well if you just told me, I woulda behaved!". The reality, every time I've given a warning to shape up or be demoted, I have had one of the above occur.

You were given warning. I have my competence and professionalism line memorized. When you hear "I expect professionalism and competence from my command staff", and you're not displaying such attributes....THAT is your warning.

Captain, HoP, CE, RD, HoS, CMO, and QM are the roles where you are expected to actually play as a mature, responsible individual in charge of an assigned department. If your character is a cunt/slut/nudist/idiot/rebel/etc, then that character most likely should not be played in command roles.

[BigManClancy]

Warning a department head who has already established themselves as acting unprofessional is just giving them the forewarning needed to arm up, be annoying, fuck off to space, stage a mutiny, etc. Literally everyone says "Well if you just told me, I woulda behaved!". The reality, every time I've given a warning to shape up or be demoted, I have had one of the above occur.

Yeah, you are the War Veteran who has seen young Privates die in Vietnam due to their foolishness too, right?
Fact is: Part of professionalism is being transparent with the rest of your heads, it is pretty dickish to assume that every person acts the same way just because you have had a shit experience with actually being transparent and warning people about demotions.
I am telling you that i would have stood down, probably have a little bit of a snicker at your expense but i woulda stood down.
You cannot come here and say "Oh you WOULD have totally fucked off to space, staged mutinies and such". That is a bit of an asspull to justify this kind of shitty behavior.

Captain, HoP, CE, RD, HoS, CMO, and QM are the roles where you are expected to actually play as a mature, responsible individual in charge of an assigned department. If your character is a cunt/slut/nudist/idiot/rebel/etc, then that character most likely should not be played in command roles.

Yeah, that is why we totally had a HoP get shitface drunk without any intervention from you either in that same shift too, yeah?
Since you like assuming what my actions are i can do the same to you:
I believe you cherrypicked me because of my unruly nature, you are probably buddy-buddy with every other head and have them crawl up your ass.
And that is perfectly fine, that is an IC thing if they like to suck up to get the better treatment, but that is not how Luna rolls mate.
Luna is sarcastic, a pessimistic slimeslut.

We have had way worse heads than me, we have heads that literally do not know their fucking job whatsoever (Madelyn, Sinder etc.)

So you cherrypicked me because my character is more of a "Rebel" character that likes to crack jokes and let insults fly.

[SomanBat]

Yeah, you are the War Veteran who has seen young Privates die in Vietnam due to their foolishness too, right?

Yes. I have. Iraq war. 99-2009. Combat medic. Saw many people die. It sucked. Has no bearing on the game.

Yeah, that is why we totally had a HoP get shitface drunk without any intervention from you either in that same shift too, yeah?
Since you like assuming what my actions are i can do the same to you:
I believe you cherrypicked me because of my unruly nature, you are probably buddy-buddy with every other head and have them crawl up your ass.
And that is perfectly fine, that is an IC thing if they like to suck up to get the better treatment, but that is not how Luna rolls mate.
Luna is sarcastic, a pessimistic slimeslut.

We have had way worse heads than me, we have heads that literally do not know their fucking job whatsoever (Madelyn, Sinder etc.)

So you cherrypicked me because my character is more of a "Rebel" character that likes to crack jokes and let insults fly.

There was no cherrypicking. HoP got the same professionalism statement, shaped up, and stopped calling for clowns. The RD was told to go back to his department and run things, rather than trying to sleep with the HoP. Had meteors not hit, the department would have been inspected, and a demotion likely would have occurred.

Amusing you should mention Madelyn. One of my characters. After a discussion with admins, I no longer play Madelyn as a command role. Why? I was told the way Madelyn was played was not conductive to a command role. So, I retired them from command, and now I play Captain.

These are decisions you must make when deciding what role to play. Command roles are expected to be professional, competent, follow the orders, manage department, etc. They are the only roles expected of that.

[BigManClancy]

Yes. I have. Iraq war. 99-2009. Combat medic. Saw many people die. It sucked. Has no bearing on the game.

Sorry, didn't actually mean to hit a nerve there. Thank you for the service (As stupidly tacked on as this might feel in a complaint like this)

There was no cherrypicking. HoP got the same professionalism statement, shaped up, and stopped calling for clowns. The RD was told to go back to his department and run things, rather than trying to sleep with the HoP. Had meteors not hit, the department would have been inspected, and a demotion likely would have occurred.

So why did you prioritize someone who merely disagreed with you and insulted you once out of spite over somebody who actively did not participate in their job and derelicted their duty?
it still feels pretty biased in my fair opinion.

[SomanBat]

So why did you prioritize someone who merely disagreed with you and insulted you once out of spite over somebody who actively did not participate in their job and derelicted their duty?
it still feels pretty biased in my fair opinion.

Priorities.

On one hand, I had a HoP who was drinking, opening clown slots, but basically doing their job without causing overt levels of trouble. On the flipside, I had a QM who openly urged the crew to be armed, was insulting, and has the ability to perform "lel mutiny" quite quickly, given how fast guncargo can come up. Ergo, I took prompt action on the QM to stall that possibility.

Do not think that you were the sole target for Captain's shitlist. Meteors interrupted what likely was going to be the HoP catching a demotion, as the clowns were causing shit and the HoP was directly responsible for their arrival. The RD was likely on the chopping block as well, for openly discussing mutiny and leaving his department to engage in ERP/etc with the HoP on an amber alert.

Of note as well, the demotion was to Cargo technician. Not assistant. Cargo tech can still do all of the cargo duties, just without the command access. Had you returned to cargo, and performed duties there without further issue, QM likely would have been restored (barring the meteors).

The key behind this all is that admins have expressed to me a displeasure of unprofessional command players. I have been given the "shape up or ship out" speech, been demoted, the works. As it is generally an IC issue, I play Captain to resolve them ICly. Department heads (and to a lesser degree security) are the only roles I actually enforce a degree of "workplace realism" on. If your boss IRL told you "No, that's wrong, we aren't doing it", I doubt your next response would be "YOU'RE AN IDIOT BOSS FUCKING MORON!" to his face. You would.....be fired.

[BigManClancy]

On the flipside, I had a QM who openly urged the crew to be armed, was insulting, and has the ability to perform "lel mutiny" quite quickly, given how fast guncargo can come up. Ergo, I took prompt action on the QM to stall that possibility.

So you demoted me purely due to the "possibility" of me being able to arm people up and causing a mutiny?
Last time i heard that would be considered powergaming. You are literally taking action against a possible threat based on the pure "possibility".
Similarly to how one might powergame against the cult by pre-emptively getting holy water tanks to Sec.

Of note as well, the demotion was to Cargo technician. Not assistant. Cargo tech can still do all of the cargo duties, just without the command access.

A demotion is still a demotion, as much as you sugarcoat it.

The key behind this all is that admins have expressed to me a displeasure of unprofessional command players. I have been given the "shape up or ship out" speech, been demoted, the works. As it is generally an IC issue, I play Captain to resolve them ICly. Department heads (and to a lesser degree security) are the only roles I actually enforce a degree of "workplace realism" on. If your boss IRL told you "No, that's wrong, we aren't doing it", I doubt your next response would be "YOU'RE AN IDIOT BOSS FUCKING MORON!" to his face. You would.....be fired.

I think you are taking this game a little bit too seriously, are you not?
This is a server where we literally have anthropomorphic animals running around,
Where we have absolute horny slimesluts as heads
The game where there is an entire gamemode dedicated to a WIZARD running around causing havoc,
And not to forget, the server where Roboticist will spam out honkbots, or medibots called "ARGGH STOP RUNNING AWAY".

If you take the game so seriously as a head that you will demote everybody for even sneezing at you the wrong direction then i frankly feel that YOU are the one not fit to play the head role here...