[DISCORD] Werewolf#4010 - Inviting and perpetuating drama

[Weblure]

I was going to write full response, but then I'd realized it'd be incredibly redundant. I'm not going to continue elaborating on the same things that you somehow keep misunderstanding. I think everything in this thread speaks for itself at this point.

Though, I should say that I find it interesting that multiple people DM'd you to specifically tell you that they didn't understand what I was arguing about. The only people directly involved in that argument were you, me, and the other guy that dropped out in fear of being banned. Though obviously, I don't doubt that anyone else that walked in to that argument would've been lost, considering it was split up between over a hundred memes over the course of an hour or so, on top of you confusingly twisting the subject. The fact that people who weren't involved in the discussion from the start found themselves lost and confused is expected and irrelevant. I'm sure that anyone else that reads those screenshots that I posted here in my initial response to you would immediately find it clear what I was talking about.

I also find it kinda ironic that you'd point out that you technically didn't say the word "technically". Yeah, I know, it wasn't a direct quote, sue me. Kinda irrelevant since it really doesn't change anything; you were using, and are still using, legal technicality to excuse yourself for accusing someone of posting childporn. The fact that you'd get so caught up on something that minor to the point of going back and counting each instance of the word being used really makes it seem like you're just grasping at straws at this point. Kinda like how you feel the need to point out that you're being more 'serious' than I am, as if not using insults somehow makes up for repeatedly missing the point and not accepting full responsibility.

It's not your 'shitposty attitude' that people are upset about. There's a difference between being a memey admin and completely invalidating people's concerns about something shitty you did, to the point of turning it around to make them look bad. That's not being 'lax', that's just being a dick.

[AnalWerewolf]

I was going to write full response, but then I'd realized it'd be incredibly redundant. I'm not going to continue elaborating on the same things that you somehow keep misunderstanding. I think everything in this thread speaks for itself at this point.

Though, I should say that I find it interesting that multiple people DM'd you to specifically tell you that they didn't understand what I was arguing about. The only people directly involved in that argument were you, me, and the other guy that dropped out in fear of being banned. Though obviously, I don't doubt that anyone else that walked in to that argument would've been lost, considering it was split up between over a hundred memes over the course of an hour or so, on top of you confusingly twisting the subject. The fact that people who weren't involved in the discussion from the start found themselves lost and confused is expected and irrelevant. I'm sure that anyone else that reads those screenshots that I posted here in my initial response to you would immediately find it clear what I was talking about.

I also find it kinda ironic that you'd point out that you technically didn't say the word "technically". Yeah, I know, it wasn't a direct quote, sue me. Kinda irrelevant since it really doesn't change anything; you were using, and are still using, legal technicality to excuse yourself for accusing someone of posting childporn. The fact that you'd get so caught up on something that minor to the point of going back and counting each instance of the word being used really makes it seem like you're just grasping at straws at this point. Kinda like how you feel the need to point out that you're being more 'serious' than I am, as if not using insults somehow makes up for repeatedly missing the point and not accepting full responsibility.

It's not your 'shitposty attitude' that people are upset about. There's a difference between being a memey admin and completely invalidating people's concerns about something shitty you did, to the point of turning it around to make them look bad. That's not being 'lax', that's just being a dick.

Yes people DM'd me after reading over what happened in #memes specifically to tell me they thought I was in the right. I've posted screenshots in admin chat on the discord server and will not be posting the DMs elsewhere. They read the conversation after the fact and evidently thought you too were trying to defend CP and did not understand that you simply had a skewed interpretation of the law. Hell, someone who also didn't understand this also commented on this thread pretty early on.

I really didn't want to have to keep discussing this but you cannot seem to let it go.
I am not using legal technicality to excuse myself. I'm using actual cited sources directly from the Department of Justice, see below. What was posted was child pornography. It depicted a minor in a crude sexual activity, there is no possible way to argue this, there is no mental gymnastics that you can pull to say otherwise. I will admit wholeheartedly that I shouldn't have even mentioned the ban, or continued to argue about it in such a manner as to cause a scene, however I will not back down on the indisputable fact that what was posted constituted CP and me calling it as such was correct. Additionally, I would advise against using insults in general, the moment you insult a person instead of the content of their message you have already lost, as they say.

Child pornography is a form of child sexual exploitation. Federal law defines child pornography as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor (persons less than 18 years old). Images of child pornography are also referred to as child sexual abuse images.
Federal law prohibits the production, distribution, importation, reception, or possession of any image of child pornography. A violation of federal child pornography laws is a serious crime, and convicted offenders face fines severe statutory penalties (For more information, see Citizen's Guide to Federal Law on Child Pornography).

Images of child pornography are not protected under First Amendment rights, and are illegal contraband under federal law. Section 2256 of Title 18, United States Code, defines child pornography as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor (someone under 18 years of age). Visual depictions include photographs, videos, digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor, and images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor. Undeveloped film, undeveloped videotape, and electronically stored data that can be converted into a visual image of child pornography are also deemed illegal visual depictions under federal law.

Notably, the legal definition of sexually explicit conduct does not require that an image depict a child engaging in sexual activity. A picture of a naked child may constitute illegal child pornography if it is sufficiently sexually suggestive. Additionally, the age of consent for sexual activity in a given state is irrelevant; any depiction of a minor under 18 years of age engaging in sexually explicit conduct is illegal.

It's not your 'shitposty attitude' that people are upset about. There's a difference between being a memey admin and completely invalidating people's concerns about something shitty you did, to the point of turning it around to make them look bad. That's not being 'lax', that's just being a dick.

If not for my attitude during that incident, I find it quite difficult to think of what else you may be referring to. The miscommunication sure, I've already brought that up and apologized for it, however. I am not entirely sure what else you could be referring to here.

[Weblure]

Yes people DM'd me after reading over what happened in #memes specifically to tell me they thought I was in the right. I've posted screenshots in admin chat on the discord server and will not be posting the DMs elsewhere. They read the conversation after the fact and evidently thought you too were trying to defend CP and did not understand that you simply had a skewed interpretation of the law. Hell, someone who also didn't understand this also commented on this thread pretty early on.

Without hearing exactly what they have to say, that info is pretty useless. We don't know how much of the conversation they actually read or what their relationship with you is. They're very much welcome to join the discussion here if they feel they have something to contribute. Otherwise, I'm not interested in your secondhand interpretation of what they said to you in DM's, after you demonstrated and continue to demonstrate how much trouble you have with interpreting things. Out of all the people that replied here, the only person that didn't understand the topic was a single trialadmin that clearly couldn't be bothered to even read my post, let alone read the screenshots, as highlighted in ForFoxSake's reply.

Speaking of poor interpretation, you somehow still seem to think that anyone cares about what the law says. As multiple people have already explained, there's a difference between legal definition and how the general public defines it. Nobody sane would label that image as actual child porn.

But hey, since you're so desperate to continue pushing the legal definition to cover your ass, I'll play along. It's another good example of how you consistently manage to misinterpret the things you read.

Quoting from the very thing you just posted:

Section 2256 of Title 18, United States Code, defines child pornography as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor (someone under 18 years of age). Visual depictions include photographs, videos, digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor, and images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor.

This might be confusing for you, so I'll break it down and highlight the key words:
"digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor"
"images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor"

The image was very much distinguishable from an ACTUAL minor. The subject was a generic cartoon drawing and thus could not be IDENTIFIABLE as an ACTUAL MINOR.

This was even pointed out to you by someone else during your initial argument:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png

So to be extremely clear:

• Do I support pornographic drawings depicting minors, even if fictional? FUCK NO.
• Do I support the distasteful image in question? FUCK NO.
• Was the image ACTUAL child pornography? NO.
• Was the image LEGALLY considered child pornography? NO.
• Was the image even pornographic in nature? HARDLY.
• Was the image against Discord ToS? POSSIBLY.
• Was the image distasteful? YES.
• Should the image have been deleted? YES.

There, now your one and only excuse that you have been so desperately repeating since the very beginning has been proven to be incorrect. I hope you're happy that you forced me to finish this idiotic debate that I never wanted to be a part of in the first place. You can finally shut up about it and find a better excuse -- or more preferably, fully own up for making such a wildly-inaccurate claim -- and forever drop this idiotic, misguided argument. Seriously, what is your problem?

If not for my attitude during that incident, I find it quite difficult to think of what else you may be referring to. The miscommunication sure, I've already brought that up and apologized for it, however. I am not entirely sure what else you could be referring to here.

The problem I have is that, despite everything that happened and after everyone here called you out on your shit, you CONTINUE to behave this way and CONTINUE to pull crap like this. I was initially keeping my overall stance on you and your moderation abilities neutral, but I think you've made it abundantly clear by now that you have serious problems that heavily compromise your ability to moderate.

At this point, I strongly hope that the heads of staff take your position as admin into serious reconsideration.

[AnalWerewolf]

I don't even have words for this complaint anymore. I tried my best at least I can say that.

All I wanted was to talk to you about whatever issues you were having with me in a genuine and sincere fashion.
All I wanted was to find out what other issues you may have been having and you responded in such a way that deeply upset me and I still don't know what else you were concerned about.
I really don't want to continue to discuss the legality of this with you. It is evident we have different views and that this will not change. Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

This is just so very disheartening. But I believe everything we have to say to each other has already been said.

[Weblure]

I genuinely hope you haven't tried your best, but if that's true, then all I can say is that's unfortunate.

I regret resorting to replying to you in such a condescending manner, but I honestly don't know how else to get my point across to you anymore. It's very upsetting to have most of what I say either invalidated or disregarded with minimal explanation as to why, other than you repeating the same things I've been trying to clear up.


You've been continuously misinterpreting nearly everything I say and then suggesting and arguing that I was unclear and that it's my fault that you don't understand.

You've been continuing to bring up your misunderstanding of a legal quote and claiming that you were in the right to label the image as child porn because of it, despite multiple people telling you over and over that it's completely irrelevant.

You also evaded the real issue by implying that the problems we have with you are that you're too 'shitposty' and 'lax' for a moderator, and promising to work on those faux issues instead of the real ones.

As a result, you have effectively deflected most of the blame away from yourself, making your apology and attempt at owning up to your mistakes essentially empty and meaningless.


Those are my concerns. I don't know what else to say.

[ForFoxSake]

I feel I should have responded to this sooner, since things have escalated a lot since my last post... But, I've been busy with other things.

A pre-emptive apology, if anything in my post has already been covered, I've gone through the posts I've quoted in detail and if I've missed a corresponding detail in another post, then that's my bad. I've already lost about 4 hours on this post as it stands.

It is definitely a wake up call alright,

That's a good start.

except for now when all of a sudden staff come out of the woodwork to shit on me for it.

That's not such a good start, though. Already from your tone I can see this is veering off in a bad direction.

I was never told that my attitude was unacceptable in any official manner by other staff

While I find this difficult to believe, when I described this as a wake up call, it was under the intention that this would be an explanation of how you attitude has been unacceptable, described entirely in an official manner.

I can say with out a doubt that neither of you two have ever tried to help me.

Now, I recall at least three instances where I've tried to approach you about this. Unfortunately I could only find proof of one.

snip.png (41.38 KiB) Viewed 4106 times

My wording in this case in particular was somewhat obtuse, but I was attempting to reach out to you by starting with some self deprecation, so that perhaps you'd see that I'm aware of my own faults before I moved on to the issue.
As it shows, it took mere seconds for me to be brushed aside entirely.

I don't even know what you mean by help

This confuses me somewhat. My post didn't contain the word help, so I'm afraid I can't elaborate on that without some more specific information from you.

I never goaded any other uses to harass Feril, that's a mistake on their own part, I cannot control how others perceive someone's argument, hell, even I failed to understand what they were trying to argue

I'm hoping you've come to realise your error here in the course of the thread already, because this is something that shouldn't have to be spelled out, ever.
For absolute clarity of my points, I'm going to spell it out here, hoping I'll be stating the obvious.
Your choice of words in an argument influences everybody's perception of that topic. This is especially true of admins.
To back reference some of the screenshots from the first post:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... nknown.png
Despite Feril's many posts saying "I'm not defending it.", you continued to say things like "Imagine defending CP."
It's evident how easy it would be for someone coming into this argument late, to see this and immediately jump to the wrong conclusions and start hounding them for it. While I don't agree with that kind of behaviour, I also don't agree with valid hunting, and this situation is more than slightly comparable to logging onto main and saying "(name of character in round) is valid."
In other words, your misleading choice of words is giving the green light to assholes looking for trouble.

Do you honestly expect me to take advice from you after that? Even if you brought it up to me in any serious, honest, calm manner, I'd still have reservations believing you after what you've pulled before

Point is that I don't give a shit about what you think. You have your own shitty history with myself and others. I will take anyone else's opinion seriously but yours.

If you're going to brush off concerns raised in discord because they "aren't being raised in an official capacity", and you're going to brush off concerns raised here because "you once said something mean to me", where can concerns be raised?

This one leads on to the elephant in the room.
After I had made a joke in poor spirit about something I had misunderstood on the discord, it quickly became obvious that you feel I have a grudge against you, and that I'm put on some kind of grandstand against you here.
This isn't true at all, as you'll notice this post has the exact same tone as my last one. That's because I'm trying to talk directly to you here, in such a way that clearly outlines the issues while also remaining friendly.
I need it to be understood as such, otherwise the literal hours I put into these posts are all for naught.

[BlackMajor]

Yeah so I'm just gonna be straight foward in that Werewolf ended up quitting sometime after this complaint and some things were put in perspective for him.

So uh...

I guess I'll close this now.
Not like this can really go anywhere now that they're not staff.

Afterall, what'm I gonna do. Deadmin him again?