[MAIN ] D-args - Daphnee - Was walled off by the AI

[Everoth]

[MAIN ] D-args - Daphnee - Was walled off by the AI

BYOND Name of complaint against: - D-args - Daphnee

Your BYOND name: Everoth

Date of issue and round ID: Monday about 2 am - Round ID:19638

Reason for complaint:

As an antag i had to kill the AI, i needed a distraction with a fill bridge, so i placed a syndicate bomb on sci, by xeno biology. Then ran to the brig with an emag and some emps when it blew up. Tried to make my way in but i ran out of emag charges, was spotted by the AI and borgs then battle ensue. I lost after a while and was given to security. Warden had me cuffed, restrained and stripped.

The AI, played by D-args in a shell comes into the bridge and grabs me, takes me afar into the AI satellite as i ask him to stop, remove my cuffs and let me go. Ai does not comply because i am an antagonist. This seems reasonable. The AI proceeds to make a 1by1 cell where he leaves me, even when i state it is against protocol to do that and not take me to permanent, he states "nah" and leaves me there. I send and ahelp ticket and wait.

O̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶r̶t̶y̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶u̶t̶e̶s̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ i get no answer and im still there, unable to ask for help since i have no coms. No answer, so i sent another ticket. A̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶a̶l̶f̶ ̶h̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶p̶a̶s̶s̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ i start to grow desperate, i go into main, ask if any admin is available and i get a reply. Daphnee states that she needs me to repeat everything that happen again. I do so and she states that its my fault for not being specific enough. I reply to the admin and the AI comes.

During this time, the AI comes back to taunt again. I had enough at this point being about an hour here, getting the notice that i was lacking oxygen until the AI popped it open. I tell them that i had enough and i want out, the ai does nothing to comply to this and mocks me. So i grab the metal plate, state i had enough of this and hit myself three times. Ai states quickly, "oh well, i was about to let you out, now i wount" immediately closing the wall right after with no time to reply.

At this point I had enough of it and proceed to kill myself as i was walled off again. During my time dead I had this conversation with Daphnee. And i feel like she is completely ignoring the rules here about not being a dick. D-args is clearly ignoring AI rules, but she did nothing with the issue, it was never arranged at all and it was left on discord until i asked about the status of it today. I was told to bring the issue here because it was not an issue to be discussed on discord. So here it is. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Here i broke, It was my fault for killing myself. Not the AI for being a dick, not for breaking law 1 and law 2. Not the AI for kidnapping. Not the AI for not listening to me to let me out. I did a thing that took me off the game because i broke from griefing from the AI and an admin that wants to ignore the issue because i did not let the AI to finish what they where doing? what? i should have let them finish griefing me until they had enough?

Edit: Major clarified my times where completely wrong. Strikedtrough time issues.

[Sk1Tz]

Yeah. They do that a lot. Walling off, I mean. They did that to me a couple times. They loooove to disobey as an AI/Silicon, a lot. Drains the fun out of the game to the point where I just don't play whenever I see them online.

[Owai]

Round ID:19638
Player (if applicable): Everoth - D-args - Daphnee - Owai-Seek
Your BYOND name: WFTWP

Here's my take on the situation. I was only there for a short time, but I can confirm that the AI intentionally caused Everoth grief this round. I went to the sat with a borg, as they were concerned about the AI not responding. When we got there, Everoth was being full-stripped by the AI in an engineering shell. At that point the AI explicitly said they were going to punish Everoth by shoving them in a 1x1 cell as punishment for what they had done. I had no idea what was going on, so I rolled with it, and started faffing about a bit. From what I remember, the AI teleported off the Sat through a portal, and came back, which is when me and the Borg I was with ended up leaving (After the AI told me to stop stealing Everoth's stuff, which the borg asked me to pick up/check). I don't remember Everoth speaking at all during this time, but he was handcuffed and completely naked.

A short while after, I tried to ask the AI if they had given the person they jailed any air. I received no response, and forgot about what happened until I saw the ahelp listed on the discord.

AI or no, gay baby jailing someone completely naked in a room with no air for an entire round outside the reach of intercomms, headsets, and radios is an intentional violation of the servers no-griefing rules. AFAIK, Everoth never actually made it to the AI, so their laws should have still been crewsimov. Putting Everoth in a 1x1 room with no oxygen is not only a dick move, it's an intentional violation of Law 1. The AI isn't security, and on crewsimov it is meant to protect the crew, the AI intentionally placed Everoth in a position where Harm was the only possible outcome.

As for the Admin Complaint portion, I don't really have much to say, nor do I really have the right to. The only thing I can possibly think of is that Dapnee made a decision on the situation without knowing the full story. There's fault on both sides, and I have nothing more to really say on it.

[BlackMajor]

Allright sorry it took me a while to get to this, normally busy and or forgetful.

Anywho, I myself won't be resolving this ahelp complaint thing because it would be highly improper for me to resolve something with which I'm involved.

Hi, I play D-args, and here's how things went on my opposing side.

I'm doing my crewsimov AI thing, and I've been blessed with four AI shells by the roboticst to which I store within my AI sat.
A bomb later on, detonates in xenobiology. Much to my dismay. So I get some folk to go fix it, and continue about my duties.
Discussion occurs on the radio, and eventually I am told that apparantly Everoth had set the bomb in xenobiology. And that about fits the boot, when I hear the detonation sound of a brick of C4 at my door. It's everoth, and he brought a lot of EMP's. So I load up one of my shells, and go baton him, this takes a while due to all the EMP's he brought to the table.
Eventually, he gets stam crit, and I intend on putting him in a box until I can decide what to do with him. Skylar shows up however and batons him more, apparantly upset about the teleporter, to which I ask for him back, as I had punishment plans of my own for this traitor breaking into my sat whom had apparantly set off a high explosive in xenobiology.

At this point, I drag him to a corner in the sat, have a brief discussion where he asks for release, but im not going to release someone who was bombing the station, no sir, and wall him into a corner.

The exact moment of Everoth being walled into a corner, was [2019-10-14 07:30:53.060].

After checking in on things, I come back to check on him about the bomb. A brief conversation ensues in which I start to try to talk to him, but get swamped in interruptions in the form of other folk showing up to my sat (Owai and another borg, whom I tell to sod off after seeing them rifling through Everoth's things), and orders over the radio. Forcing me to drop what I'm doing and tend to said orders. It's fairly bothersome, trying to talk to my captive about the bombing matter while also being blasted with ;AI LAW 2 OPEN on the radio and having to drop the shell to go open it.
At this point, Everoth gives up, and starts to kill himself.
Seeing the prisoner starting the process of killing himself, I drop all obligation to care. As a crewsimov silicon, I really, really dont care about self harm. And if he kills himself? That's less trouble for me to have to bother with.
He was never taunted about being let out, the exact words upon seeing him start to kill himself were as follows:

[2019-10-14 07:40:47.590] SAY: BlackMajor/(D-args shell 291 - Engineering) "I mean" (AI Sat Ext (124, 197, 2))
[2019-10-14 07:40:53.731] SAY: BlackMajor/(D-args shell 291 - Engineering) "If you're gonna do that, allright" (AI Sat Ext (124, 197, 2))
[2019-10-14 07:40:57.651] SAY: BlackMajor/(D-args shell 291 - Engineering) "Was kinda gonna uhh" (AI Sat Ext (124, 197, 2))
[2019-10-14 07:41:04.526] SAY: BlackMajor/(D-args shell 291 - Engineering) "Talk t'ye about somethin' involvin' that bomb" (AI Sat Ext (124, 197, 2))
[2019-10-14 07:41:08.412] SAY: BlackMajor/(D-args shell 291 - Engineering) "but if that's you aight" (AI Sat Ext (124, 197, 2))
[2019-10-14 07:41:16.425] SAY: BlackMajor/(D-args shell 291 - Engineering) "leav eya to it" (AI Sat Ext (124, 197, 2))

Note. That this log is 10 minutes after the initial walling in. "An hour" as previously stated was certainly the exxageration.
Having left him to die of his own self harm, I carry on with my tasks.
Everoth eventually dies from his self critting at:
[2019-10-14 07:46:22.407]
6 minutes after beating himself into crit.


The claims that this was a law 1 breach, in my opinion, are invalid.
A 1x1 hole does /not/ cause the occupant to suffocate. Everoth never sustained any oxyloss inside his hole, until he beat himself to crit.
Why he made complaints about a silicon not following protocol makes me scratch my head. A silicon doesn't abide to space law. A gay baby jail is a perfectly reasonable way to isolate a dangerous, harmful crewman from the rest of the crew to a silicon. But I did come back to check on him, in any case, but any discussion that I would have intended to have was /immediately/ dropped when he started to kill himself.

[HazelBailey]

My two cent, I know I'm not an admin anymore, but I'd still like to weigh in here. While I fully agree that gay baby jailing someone is something that shouldn't be done, because it's super unfun for the player that receives this punishment, I think that's the only thing that Blackmajor really did "wrong" here. Ignoring the demands of a crewmember to be released that has bombed multiple sections of the station, is perfectly valid in my eyes because letting you out brings more potential for crew harm. And like Black said, once you started beating yourself into crit, he didn't have to care anymore because silicons don't have to care about self harm (Reason for this being people will use it to be dicks to silicons for no reason).

[Everoth]

I was told to report for law 1 because I was told that was breaking law 1 of being a dick to players, after I was captured, naked and stripped i was no treat to the station, there was no need to jailed me like that, and it felt like a long ignoring time since I had nothing to interact with to tell time with.

I was also told that went against silicon laws to I reported it too, why tell me " you did not ask the AI to let you go " when I did, and the AI rejected because I blew sci, even without causing crew harm and the AI not knowing that my mission was to kill the AI. The AI just did what it wanted and when he said he was letting me go, it gave me less than 10 second to reply, after hitting myself three times and was walled, with no way to reply, talk or get help I just continued. I was placed in a loose/loose situation since the beginning.

Gay baby jail was not reasonable on this point, I had no points left, the detonation at sci was a distraction and I had nothing to defend myself, nor will to continue, I was ignored no matter what I said all that time. To think that I should believe the AI after so much taunting, and only when I start hitting myself to avoid more undeserved gay baby jailed seemed like just a cop out to not get punished by Admins for breaking the rules on purpose. AI immediately started to wall me off and not even gave me a chance to reply, AI was clearly not interested in doing that at all. Later on when he came to check he also took less than three seconds before he walled me off and left, I did not have a chance to respond, what else was I supposed to do?

I only killed myself because I spent so long asking for help and being ignored, then played by the AI by laws I know are wrong, by rules I know AI knows is breaking, it just seemed completely unfair for no reason. I was denied interaction, movement, speaking, everything, how is that not being a dick and not allowing everyone to have a good time even when they are playing sec or other roles. For example, as a wizard I would blow things up and kill crew, loot them and do wizard things. But I am not going to drag their bodies away to space to not be resurrected, I will destroy cloning but then leave it to give them time to rebuild it. You want to make it fun for everyone.

I mean if it is fair to troll and grief someone and force them to commit suicide to get out of the punishment, ill have to remember that for when I actually have a reason to grief and troll someone, ill just let them know if they want out they can kill themselves and I should be without a blame, after all they killed themselves, and i have nothing to worry about it as the AI, I don't even have to ask them to stop. But i wount, i just really don't like ruining the games of other people in unsolvable ways even when I have the ability to do so because it feels unfair to them and i don't want to be a dick, just do my antag job like everyone else and have fun while at it.

I had so many chances to just wall off people naked that I have to stop from getting into the ship as a crew or as a borg. Hell walling off antagonists that are always in places you know you can wall them off because they have no tools to break away from that would have been easier than dealing with their carp, but I was strictly told by rules, admins and simple common sense that was not allowed or fun for anyone. Regardless of the time spent, wich i recognize i was wrong, it just felt longer by how miserable I was feeling from the whole situation, it just dragged slowly when you cant interact with nothing, cant see or hear anything, and you just want to die or cryo so you can go to sleep at 3 am in the morning. I was denied to even go to sleep because I could not cryo and had to deal with the admin ticket.

@Hailey: I was not trying to be a dick to borgs, my mission was to kill the AI. After i used the bomb as a distraction. I went with an emag to try and EMP the AI, but i ran out of charges on the way, that is when AI shell came in with the borgs to tase me with a stun baton.
@Major: Thanks a lot for the help, thank you for your time and i honestly have nothing against you, but i still feel this was unnecessary, not fun and unfair. I was expecting the AI to be a player who wouldn't know this, but since it was you and an admin, then i dont know why would you do this when i had no way, shape or form to do anything at all, much less harm the crew.

[Dapnee]

Alright, almost two weeks since the last post, longer since I should of done this thanks to multiple life related things, but here I am. Here is a pastebin of all the say logs possibly relevant to the situation (since I'm not allow to attach txt files). I suppose I'll dissect this piece by piece now that I have time.


First let's talk about my side since everyone else has so far. When I got on that morning, it was before work (only an issue when I was dealing with a different ahelp, not this one). I decided to play as a drone (as it's normally a role no one cares to notice ghost), and OH BOY a giant bomb went off so I rushed over to deal with xenobio. A bit later, I ghost to watch you set off a few emp's on the AI sat since I was getting admin notifications of them before going back to my stuff. A bit later, I get your initial ahelp. Now, the last back and forth we had a while before this in ahelps made me not take it straight away, I had opened up the adminwho verb and saw three other admins that were also on. I go back to drone stuff. Another of your pings come through, I ghost, check adminwho again, and this time I bring up the fact I don't want to pick up the ticket to what appeared to be three other online admins in game. Well, two were afk, but not picked up yet, and the third was the AI. So great, amazing.

Around this time, you kill yourself and I realize that I'm the only admin available to take the ticket. I pick it up and we discussed what we discussed further down. To say the least, I get a bit exasperated as it goes on. I was dealing with your ticket, and two other big ones at the same time, those being Morgan's ticket that began with me questioning them if they understood how to properly gulag someone (and spiraled into a bunch of other things) and me talking with the HoP, which was a catalyst to most of Morgan's issues and was given a stern warning and note.

By round end, I was done. The reason I put my foot down in staff-chat was due to the fact about four other players telling me how I was suppose to deal with your ticket when at most, Owai was the only one present, and he wasn't present for much at all of it.

A bit of time passes and I get busy with life and put off replying here because of it, first bugging BM to write his piece and then I was on "vacation" which was mostly me moving to my new apartment. Yadda yadda yadda, I finally got time now and here we are, couple of paragraphs later.


Now to reiterate my beliefs of the matter here. Yes, the AI walled you off. No one disagrees with that of course. This is ultimately the only bad thing that occurred toward you IC by the AI. Do I think this needed to be as big as issue it became? No. If I had picked up the ticket sooner, I would of asked the AI to let you out, which, they were going to do anyway after speaking with you before getting law 2'd away for a bit.

AI laws dictate them to deal with immediate harm (law 1), and a traitor that bombed xenobiology and parts of the station, is definitely something that will cause harm. Security at the time, was busy somewhat infighting, and beyond telling the AI good job, didn't think much of the situation. The captain also gave it not much of a care after you broke a teleporter (later fixed of course), and so the AI took you. You then tried to insist the AI uncuff you (law 2), while you were still very much a threat that could continue emp'ing and causing havoc (law 1), thus ignored for the time. You were walled in for ten minutes before beating yourself to crit, which you then laid on the ground gasping because in crit, you have difficulty breathing. You otherwise had air.

The AI, also tried speaking with you about seven minutes later, but was continually law 2'd by crew members and thus was busy dealing with them until they came back. AI's do not have to respond to self harm, and as has been discussed by headmins, dead bodies do not constitute law 1, or rather, they don't need to worry about the dead. So yeah, you stay dead on the satellite despite the AI bringing it up at least once with command.

I was told to report for law 1

I said to point to Rule 1, don't be a dick. We're discussing AI laws and rules and mixing words here isn't good. What I meant was that, you had standing for me to bug the AI to let you out, but since I only got to your ticket after you died, there wasn't much else for me to do then: accept it, or revive an antag that killed themselves. This last option would of lead you to being permabrigged for the amount of crimes you committed, which, yes, wouldn't be GBJ, but would of been just as round ending as being dead.

I was denied to even go to sleep because I could not cryo and had to deal with the admin ticket.

I understand people are human, you could of told me you were tired, it was VERY much 3am and I myself was getting ready to go to work. If that was as big of an issue to you, you can bring it up, the entire point of adminhelp is for admins to talk with players about issues, not JUST to badger them about how they're JUST breaking rules.


Now, to close up. I believe the point of your post has already gotten through to the person you wanted it to, the player you felt wronged you. I will say, what did you want this discussion to do exactly? Did you want me to yell at/ban BM, did you want the administration team to talk about how I dealt with this ticket, or did you just want to say you were frustrated? Cause a majority of that has been looked at already in span of the first bit of this forum thread.

[Everoth]

Now, to close up. I believe the point of your post has already gotten through to the person you wanted it to, the player you felt wronged you. I will say, what did you want this discussion to do exactly? Did you want me to yell at/ban BM, did you want the administration team to talk about how I dealt with this ticket, or did you just want to say you were frustrated? Cause a majority of that has been looked at already in span of the first bit of this forum thread.

Humm your the admin, you are the one that was supposed to come up with the solution, I was hoping that after a month of waiting for it, I wouldn't have to come up with it for you.

Back then it felt unfair, a lot of people agreed and I would have loved that something would have been done back then. A lot of people don't think gbj is fair, and up to this date i see people using it, so i guess its fair and it should be used without no problem or consequence, since the people that were arguing this point against it were just silenced on discord, people keep doing it, so I get the message.

I did want to say I was frustrated, from my end it was really unfair and i had to waste hours in the morning because i could not even go to sleep, waiting that talking to admins would solve it and it only made me grew frustrated and constantly felt ignored as this took so long, long enough for me to honestly not care about it, i learned that people really don't listen or care about the rules and laws anyways. Since they are just guidelines, when ever there are no admins, they break them, specially some admins and no one cares or delivers any consequences.

So after one month, I don't see the point, seeing admins just being so ready to punish and so slow to help an issue is discouraging. I really don't want to bother you ever again for any admin stuff because of how you have handled all this. Remember the other time you helped me? when you dragged it for so long when the AI completely ignored me when i kept asking to turn off the lights?, you went off to go on against me for not being specific enough when i said "Help, AI, turns the lights off you are killing me, help stop, law 2 turn off the lights, your killing me, im dying " was not being specific enough...And then the other admin comes in and sees this, asks the AI if he noticed, and he was not even aware. And you told me then he was!, it was my fault! I even pointed out how the crew knew about this and you ignored it completely. When the other admin comes in to tell me, he talked with the AI and let them know they have to pay attention. That was all i wanted, that was all it needed to happen!

To be concerned about the time this took to get a response or an answer, even when you said several times you would, posting nothing and feeling like all of this are lies and excuses, up to the point where i gave up, is me being an asshole for not considering you requiring all this time to respond to it. So i just gave up again and left you to it, I had expected you to handle or at least listen at some of my concerns, but after all this you have not, you still stick to only the mechanical issue, I did not spend more than x time in gbj, so its ok. I took an action after having no response, so context does not matter, you committed suicide, only that matters. Don't be a dick applied until you died. Sorry but all this is just discouraging when it makes me feel that you just want to close this and be done with it with the cold and off point answers to have given me. And then you said this...

I understand people are human, you could of told me you were tired, it was VERY much 3am and I myself was getting ready to go to work. If that was as big of an issue to you, you can bring it up, the entire point of adminhelp is for admins to talk with players about issues, not JUST to badger them about how they're JUST breaking rules.

I feel that I was ignored by you at this point, I did say I tiered, I said it in game and over in discord, I even stated in the end how i just wanted to be done and go to sleep, you make me repeat things over and over and I'm sorry, but you never made me feel that you were treating with a human, all your answers are cold and as scripted as a costumer service automated answer, you never asked for any help to solve this issue making it take longer than it should, up to the point where there is no point in taking an action, was told to shut up by others about it and be patient on the forums so that I had to wait for you to ask me to give you a solution after ive been begging you for one for a month.

Well, honestly you won. You made me wait so long that I honestly was hoping this issue helped other players not feel this sort of miserable experience, from gbj to having to report it, wait over a month to be asked "If i want the administration team to talk about it", I mean if I had not stated this is a matter of concern over and over enough i don't know what i have been doing so far. Clearly I'm not the only one that stands in gbj is clearly against rule 1 of not being a dick, I would very much like it if the administration team would talk about it and not just silence and ignore people when we express our concern and told to bring it to a place where it is really not going to be taken care off.

And to touch on that law, It's a law, not a guideline, I completely disagree with AI law not seeing dead as crew, they are still on contract until they are off the manifesto, if a body is on the hall while I am a borg, I take it to medical, if I'm mediborg, I try to defib and help it, if they are dying you aid them, if they are doing self harm you report it and let crew deal with it. There is so much wrong on it that had been argued over it, and when some points of view are clearly censored and silenced, there is just nothing more we can do but keep expressing our points on this regard.

Yes, I know most has been explained, I expected a solution by now, so I can let this be, but the more I deal with this the less i want to even go back to the server, because it will be the same. Someone will abuse from power, admin will not be there to solve it, and they get away with it. People will clearly keep abusing the grey areas, abuse law 1 of not being a dick even if the rule sais not to, because this other law allows me to, or because i dont want to follow that law, so it's a guideline, i don't have to follow it. Rules apparently do not matter, they are a self-imposed set of guidelines that you should try to follow to try to have a good time as well as the others. Hell some others are not even rules at all, i was told as sec that the job was not valid hunting, that it was to keep people safe and to have everyone have a safe and enjoy their time, that antags where also crew, but so far, no one but Redtail Chase and Ickssie III have followed it, even after they go ham on bashing and disabling antags, at least have the decency to still treat them like human and even if you die, you still feel encouraged to keep playing.

I just do not know how more clear I need to be. I wanted a solution for being griefed for what i felt it was an unfair amount of time and a violation of a rule. But it's been so long that no solution will be given. The help I was hoping this ticket could give is gone with my will to pursue it. This whole experience has been nothing but slow painful dragging misery.

You are the admin, I am supposed to be able to argue my case until you pass a verdict and I have to accept it regardless. I'm done arguing my case. I have repeated this for so long while trying to be as polite and detailed as possible. I do not know what else do you want me to say or do, i just want a solution.

[Dapnee]

Let me keep this short and concise. My solution at the time, and now, is that, if you’d been in there longer and the AI hadn’t come to check on you, then I would have done something. The AI did come up and talk with you and was going to take you out, but you decided you were done and took your own way out of the situation. I’m not going to resurrect an antag that purposely murdered themself. The only person at fault here is me for assuming two of the admins that went afk were going to pick up the ahelp. I have not seen these GBJ instances you have spoken of, but I’m not on always.

Right now this complaint has been you saying I should have done something, which I still feel the AI was in the right to deal with you in this way when you posed a threat after bombing xenobio for no reason.

[Everoth]

Your solution for that time is just hindsight, I told so you many times to ask for help and you never did after the game was over. I never asked you to resurrect, I took my life because I had enough for the griefing, you are only taking the blame for one thing that is not even your fault, you clearly do not want to solve this, and just made me waste so much of my time trying to argue against a case of clear rule 1 of the server of not being a dick, and an abuse of gbj as I clearly stated many times. I keep seeing and hearing gbj abuse happen, and I'm just told to shut it because I clearly see the abuse on that and the players just enjoy it since admins are never around to punish it. Last time I saw it, I sent a ticket, it was completely ignored, that's when I saw that people really don't care about taking care of these tickets and just favor the one doing the bgj for some reason, so im done.

I said I did it as a distraction, it was the map where the AI junction was on the brig, I killed no one and I went straight to the AI until I ran out of emag charges and I proved to not try to do anything after that because I wanted to log off, tried to cooperate and not do anything bad after I got caught, but I was ignored. That is not blowing xeno for no reason, but at this point I'm just being ignored when I say that, distracting and moving the cluster of 3-4 people that where there is apparently no good reason. I could have blown up the brig, but I tried not to kill them, look at how bad my decision of saving lives for a mission about killing the Ai and stealing a jetpack, you know, to be reasonable and considerate, unlike anything i had that miserable round.