[MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

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Tupina
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[MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by Tupina »

BYOND Name of complaint against: MrJWhit and Amidal though for different reasons.

Your BYOND name: Tupinambis

Date of issue and round ID: 8/5/2020 23930

Reason for complaint: During a round in which I rolled traitor, I purchased a holoparasite, a chameleon kit which I used to create a quirky yellow uniform, and a discount cryptographic sequencer. With these items I went around public areas having my holopara play music as I tried to interact with the crew that were bronze cogging up the station. At one point I emagged the command console and purchased the gorilla shuttle. At another point I attacked someone who had slapped my ass along with my holopara, something that the heads of staff at the time (one of which was Zephyr) were fine with considering the context.
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Beyond these two events, I had not attacked or antagonized anyone at all.

While I was hanging out near medical and science just talking to my holopara, I suddenly got jumped by Amidal wielding two spears without any prior warning or interaction.
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Now, I did hear prior over the radio them threaten to kill me, but for full context security was well staffed for the pop as was command, and neither were interested in killing me, being perfectly okay with my existence. At no point did security attempt to arrest me, at no point did command attempt to shut me down. I never at any point even interacted with or provoked Amidal which made the situation all the more confusing to me. I got hit into crit by the spear rush, and a security officer attempted to bring me to medical to save me before Amidal gave chase to finish me off, where I then dusted. Pretty much all IC text pointed to the fact none of the other crew members were in any way interested in killing me, and were in fact upset and confused by my death.
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After this, I made an ahelp briefly explaining what had happened, and all I got was the standard and ever loathed "IC ISSUE" message. MrJWhit was the only admin online at the time so I assume they are the one that responded.

However, I strongly disagree both with Amidal's behavior, and with MrJWhit's judgement call, because I saw that situation as textbook validhunting.
Rule 7.1 states:
Do not abandon your job to search out, hunt for, or attack antagonists unless it is related to your department's field of work, or unless you or nearby crew-members are under a direct and immediate threat from an antagonist.
In this situation, they searched out, hunted for, and attacked me when they were an assistant, and while they were in no way threatened by me. It also states under rule 7 that
The line between validhunting and defending yourself can be grey, but a general rule of thumb is that if it's not your job to directly confront an antagonist, your goal should be to survive and escape, not to try to kill or subdue them.
It's very discouraging to see that big red IC Issue text when my attempts to try and let the crew enjoy their bronze projects and avoid using the fact I had free reign with my objectives to kill people, was met with a single person lynching me. My ideas to maybe set up a duel between me and the HoS for my glorious death objective couldn't come to fruition because of this, and I don't think it's fair to anyone when a single person ruins it for everyone else, and it's considered acceptable.

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Re: [MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by Ragolution »

I would advise that, in this message, I am not speaking as an administrator, but as my personal self. It is up to the person this complaint is directed towards, as well as the Head Admins to make a final judgement call on what has occurred or will occur by way of this complaint. What input I provide here is of a voluntary, ideally professional, nature. I could, potentially, make theses points to the parties involved, directly, but my objective is not to convince them, yet to share my opinions in a public manner.

For once I'm in support of Tupin. This does look, to me, like some degree of validhunting and a little bit of powergay. Not necessarily the most obvious case, but it is clearly a directed and focused effort to eliminate an antagonist based on the premise of 'him have the red T' by non-security personnel under no direct, obvious or overwhelming threat. While I find that their execution of the person who slapped their ass a major step over-the-top, Heads of Staff shouldn't be condoning murder to begin with, so I've made the assumption the reply was made in a joking manner. Ideally, the character should've been detained, executed or permabrigged.

Furthermore, in the provided logs, you see that the Assistant also either mentions or believes that there was no active sec during that round, which, although I've done little (none) research into the round here, that would provision some degree for why it was happening, as well. Whom would you expect to counteract your antagonistic activities, granted no Security force? Command staff isn't meant to validhunt, either, and believe me I get turbo asspained every time I see Kevinz do literally anything.

In some respects, I'd argue that Assistants can't really 'abandon their job', as they don't really have one, and that they are indeed meant to 'assist the station'. Reassigning them is almost always within the realm of possibilities, except when it comes to Command roles. If this theoretically were to be 'properly handled' in a 'low security' situation, the acting Captain could/should/would have considered enlisting people as either security or deputized security, composing them on the idea that the station lacked it proper.

That said I'm an absolutely fucking boring nazi who hates anything quirky and funny. I can fully understand not wanting to be bothered with that shit. The one caveat I would supply here is that you do advertise yourself as an antagonist the moment you have/release a holoparasite. They are in no way a 'quiet' option for antags and, so far as I am enlightened, not under the 'secret shit' provision given to gear like sleepypens and uplinks.

On the flipside, this ticket wouldn't exist if you had killed the person who'd come after you, and like enough, more would have tried and either succeeded or failed. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think, and wholly a crapshoot.

Yes, I am saying you were 'asking for it'. This could be compared to another recent incident which I marked as 'non-actionable', but if I believed the cases were identical, I would be saying so. You can consider this my gentle advice on how to avoid this in the future.

As I mentioned, earlier, I agree with your interpretation of events; Granted that the description of what took place is accurate, I do not find that the crew was in any heightened level of danger, at the time, nor that it could be considered 'defending the station/department'. It's funny how 'assistants have no job/department' is a double-edged sword like that. You might've been dicking around with a holo, but, unless you were actively being hostile/assaultive, I can certainly see how this situation could be interpreted as Validhunting, and would be pointedly on-the-fence with the ruling, but ultimately weigh in the fact that 'yeah, that's probably validhunt'.

I would also encourage concise Ahelping: Context is key. While I don't know what you wrote in your AdminPM, it can be very helpful not to throw simplistic messages like 'georg melinz griff me', because sometimes it's easy to dismiss those on the basis of not having enough information. It could be possible your ticket was dismissed for a reason similar to that, though I do not speak to the actions of any other individual at this time, and I merely pontificate for my own misgivings.
If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything.

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Re: [MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by MrJWhit »

All right, now that I'm feeling a bit physically better, let me go through the complaint, and give my thoughts on things.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
At another point I attacked someone who had slapped my ass along with my holopara, something that the heads of staff at the time (one of which was Zephyr) were fine with considering the context.
A random head of staff doesn't have anything to do with if someone is valid or not to beat up, why would they? Unless you're talking about security, the head of security, the captain, or the acting captain, why would the Chief Medical Officer have the authority to declare someone safe or not? The Chief Engineer doesn't, neither does the Quartermaster. I can pull some rules about falling within your job, or security rules if you want. But a CMO has no authority to declare that. Saying "the heads of staff at the time" means absolutely nothing, this is about security and if an assistant overstepped their bounds in attacking you.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
While I was hanging out near medical and science just talking to my holopara, I suddenly got jumped by Amidal wielding two spears without any prior warning or interaction.
We don't have rules for engagement, this point is irrelevant. But, see the next sentence.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
Now, I did hear prior over the radio them threaten to kill me, but for full context security was well staffed for the pop as was command, and neither were interested in killing me, being perfectly okay with my existence.
So they did give a warning/threat, which was your point previously, meaning you directly contradicted yourself.
I can talk about sec on the next quote.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
At no point did security attempt to arrest me, at no point did command attempt to shut me down. I never at any point even interacted with or provoked Amidal which made the situation all the more confusing to me. I got hit into crit by the spear rush, and a security officer attempted to bring me to medical to save me before Amidal gave chase to finish me off, where I then dusted.
Command has nothing to do with arresting people, as I mentioned previously.
Security not arresting you is, fine. But, an assistant doesn't have access to security comms, they don't know if someone is valid or not to attack, they don't know everything that you've done, or anything else like that. I'll talk more about why they did this, and what I talked to them about after all of these points are throuhg.
Furthermore, there were 3 security personnel at the time, at least when I checked. Gronk, the HoS and acting captain, was dead in space, there was a warden who didn't leave the brig, and a security officer who was being actively incompetent/new (I was hearing about them arresting corpses, and also asking for drugs from the CMO). Saying "full security team" is a bit of an extreme considering the spare ID was lying in space, on the only actively capable sec officer for long enough that there was a centcom message asking for help from Zephyr.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
Pretty much all IC text pointed to the fact none of the other crew members were in any way interested in killing me, and were in fact upset and confused by my death.
I don't think "upset and confused" is a good phrase for someone going "hang on, what happened?". Because people don't know what's going on in this game at all points, so asking why someone got killed explains why they got killed. At least from the quotes you posted from two people.
I don't really consider this a good reason on why this justified anything, people don't know what's going on, it's fine.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
After this, I made an ahelp briefly explaining what had happened, and all I got was the standard and ever loathed "IC ISSUE" message. MrJWhit was the only admin online at the time so I assume they are the one that responded.
I don't remember if Chase left before or after your ahelp, but yeah, I hit the IC button after talking to Amidal for about 15 minutes.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
In this situation, they searched out, hunted for, and attacked me when they were an assistant, and while they were in no way threatened by me. It also states under rule 7 that
So, let's talk about what was happening from their perspective, because I did talk to them.
Something you're conveniently forgetting is that this was after about an hour+ of the round, of which you spent the majority running around as a known traitor from the holoparasite, and the emagging, and being incredibly obvious about it, and so on. You yourself were saying that you were actively running around being a known traitor, and you weren't attacked beforehand.

So, why did they attack you then? Something must have changed with the round in order for them to view you as a threat.
There was a mad bomber lose, someone going around blowing stuff up and actively causing chaos and overwhelming the engineering department. That's what caused the internal flip.
So, there's suddenly an evil traitor on the station, actively trying to break this science facility. Who could it be? Any one of us? Or, the person who has been running around, emagging shit, calling a threatening shuttle (which directly calls you out by name), talking about their holoparasite, and being a known traitor?
It's not good logic, and I actually did talk to them about making sure to not dump all of the behavior on one person. Because it's not great, and we talked about it for those 15 minutes your ahelp went unanswered.
During that time, other things drew my attention. Including someone stopping security from arresting someone they barely talked to. Someone breaking into sec and stealing weapons with a jackhammer. And also, to be perfectly honest, my computer was starting to overheat by the time I could explain to you what was going on, so I hit the IC button.

Plus, as Rag mentioned, assistants don't have a job to abandon. It would make sense if security is too died up being incompetent and dead to solve a rampaging traitor, that they would help out in their own spear-throwing way.
Tupina wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:19 pm
My ideas to maybe set up a duel between me and the HoS for my glorious death objective couldn't come to fruition because of this, and I don't think it's fair to anyone when a single person ruins it for everyone else, and it's considered acceptable.
Tupina, I'm going to be completely honest here:
What you just said here was the most complete garbage I think you have ever said, and you honestly should think about that.

How the absolute hell would someone:
1. Know what your objectives are.
2. Want to actively promote you completing your objectives (and thereby be acting against the rules by working for a known antagonist).
3. Claim that you potentially asking for a 1v1 "ruin it for everyone else".

This is incredibly stupid, and an awful point to end your argument on.

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Re: [MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by SomanBat »

Much as I hate saying it, but JWhit is incorrect in his statement that there are no "Rules of Engagement". See Rule 7.1

Do not abandon your job to search out, hunt for, or attack antagonists unless it is related to your department's field of work, or unless you or nearby crew-members are under a direct and immediate threat from an antagonist.

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Re: [MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by Tupina »

A random head of staff doesn't have anything to do with if someone is valid or not to beat up, why would they? Unless you're talking about security, the head of security, the captain, or the acting captain, why would the Chief Medical Officer have the authority to declare someone safe or not?
To quote command policy "The role of acting captain is for the making of executive decisions only, such as execution and permabrigging. The acting captain is not expected to, and should not, dictate to other heads of staff how to run their department." My understanding is that if a captain (or acting captain) is dead or MIA a head of staff may temporarily take over the role of acting captain in making executive decisions. I am not what heads were available and who agreed on what, but there is reason for a CMO to have that authority in such a situation.
So they did give a warning/threat, which was your point previously, meaning you directly contradicted yourself.
I can talk about sec on the next quote.
I don't see this as an express contradiction, as they threatened to kill me BEFORE people over comms went "we have sec" and in addition did not actually warn me in person, they just turned around a corner and chucked a spear at me. All I had to go off of was a random threat that was supposedly founded off the idea of there not being security.
But, an assistant doesn't have access to security comms, they don't know if someone is valid or not to attack, they don't know everything that you've done, or anything else like that. I'll talk more about why they did this, and what I talked to them about after all of these points are throuhg.
Which makes the situation worse, because they shouldn't have acted to begin with as a random assistant with no knowledge of the situation that was in no way threatened by me.
Tupina, I'm going to be completely honest here:
What you just said here was the most complete garbage I think you have ever said, and you honestly should think about that.
I am not going to comment too much on how this was worded and stated, other than that it should not have been worded or stated like this. As for what I said, the point was that validhunting removed a lot of potential fun from the round for multiple people. Nobody would know the objectives, and that is not even remotely the point I was making. Having a duel with an antag and having that result in an antag achieving their objectives is not "working for a known antagonist." There is still conflict. As for ruining it for everyone else, it's more on the principle that hey, having interesting events happening in the round being prevented by someone with a couple of spears is kinda lame for everyone playing. This isn't a single round problem.

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Re: [MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by MrJWhit »

SomanBat wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:31 am
Much as I hate saying it, but JWhit is incorrect in his statement that there are no "Rules of Engagement". See Rule 7.1

Do not abandon your job to search out, hunt for, or attack antagonists unless it is related to your department's field of work, or unless you or nearby crew-members are under a direct and immediate threat from an antagonist.
Not what I was referring to when I said "rules of engagement", I was talking about requiring someone to declare their intent to attack through emotes or a verbal warning, or anything else.
Running up and shooting someone is perfectly fine, there doesn't need to be any combat foreplay.

When you should attack someone is up to question here, not, how they attacked.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
My understanding is that if a captain (or acting captain) is dead or MIA a head of staff may temporarily take over the role of acting captain in making executive decisions. I am not what heads were available and who agreed on what, but there is reason for a CMO to have that authority in such a situation.
If they were the acting captain when they asked you to stop, that would mean that.
When they asked you to not, they weren't AC, so the point is moot.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
I don't see this as an express contradiction, as they threatened to kill me BEFORE people over comms went "we have sec" and in addition did not actually warn me in person, they just turned around a corner and chucked a spear at me. All I had to go off of was a random threat that was supposedly founded off the idea of there not being security.
We don't have combat foreplay (which I'm going to keep calling it that, because it's funny), so I don't really know what your point is.
People thought there was sec? People can be wrong, that's not justification one way or the other.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
Which makes the situation worse, because they shouldn't have acted to begin with as a random assistant with no knowledge of the situation that was in no way threatened by me.
I already talked about why they thought that, they had some actual logic behind it, it was flawed, but it was still logic, and they were talked to about that problem to them as well as telling you.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
As for what I said, the point was that validhunting removed a lot of potential fun from the round for multiple people
It's also just sort of how life goes in citadel. We also have a problem of people not giving a fuck if their station gets taken over, or if someone goes around actively killing people. This isn't a binary "validhunting always good" or "validhunting is always bad", because if it were, it would be easy as fuck to just say "nonsecurity members can't attack people", but that doesn't create fun and involved gameplay of the whole server. Nothing is simple, and the question is always in the grey areas.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
Having a duel with an antag and having that result in an antag achieving their objectives is not "working for a known antagonist."
No, but letting a dangerous antag running around to play into their game, without any reason to do so, would be working with them.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
There is still conflict
Not going to lie, running around claiming you're an antag, and security is cool with you, so nobody can touch you, is extremely shitty behavior and promotes bad roleplaying, similar to the changeling hound that sec would have before that was cracked down on.
It's an extreme gamble, and when it fails, doesn't mean you can just bitch and it be a valid bitching.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
As for ruining it for everyone else, it's more on the principle that hey, having interesting events happening in the round being prevented by someone with a couple of spears is kinda lame for everyone playing.
You thought about 1v1ing someone, consider this a 1v1 you just weren't prepared for. It gives the same exact weight and importance as fighting the HoS.
Tupina wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm
This isn't a single round problem.
And I'm fine with more ahelps about this, it does mean that sometimes it's a valid fight though.

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Re: [MAIN] MrJWhit/Amidal? - Questionable Judgement, Discussion on Validhunt and IC Issues.

Post by Enzo_Leon »

Moving to Resolved as this ticket has been stagnant since August 8th, 2020 with no further updates or replies.

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