[Main] H.I.Jinxy

Nayser
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[Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Nayser »

BYOND Name of complaint against: H.I.Jinxy

Your BYOND name: Nayser

Date of issue: 07.06.2021

Round ID: 27428

Reason for complaint:

I disagree with note given to me by trial admin H.I. Jinxy and think that given circumstances i was within bounds of what is commonly accepted by rules and other staff.

The note:
"As a Paramedic responded to being attacked with hunting down in a space chase equiped with double lasers. When asked why they did this said they wanted revenge for being shot at. Defending yourself is one thing. Being equiped and using double lasers for revenges sake is another. Please do not be blatent about valid hunting. Low sec/heads of staff rounds do allow leeway, but that stops when you start hunting."

What happened from my perspective:
I will try to include as many details as possible that can potentially add context and answer any questions. During said shift i was playing as paramedic, there was no heads or security. Later in the shift I noticed some one named Venessa dragging around halls CE locker, i ran up closer and examined who it is then informed on radio they stole CE locker and moved on. Later i looked into crew monitor and found dead engineer on it, given recent theft i presumed Venessa killed said engineer and believe to have been correct. Given circumstances i have crafted my self a prod with bluespace crystal to defend my self just in case. Later i heard Lolli Whirlbel screaming for help and that that Venessa breached xenobiology from space. I have noted Lolli was taking oxygen and brute damage, equipped space gear and went to help them. When I arrived borg has already repaired the hole and Lolli seemed fine so i moved further around station towards escape. On my way in space i noticed Venessa with a different name from agent ID breaking into armory, she immediately tried to reach for me and i backed away. She tried to chase me and I backed away further, confirming that she is no longer chasing me I yelled over comms she is breaking into armory then approached again to check if she is still doing it and wasn't scared of my announcement. This time she already had looted guns and went after me with more confidence, i accidentally got my self cornered in tight space between locker room and hos office so she managed to hit me couple of times but I pulled out my prod and teleported her away then ran into armory she just breached and grabbed two laser guns, I have noted that she didn't steal the energy vest which is commonly an objective and realised she is raiding armory just to terrorise a low pop station without sec or heads. I came out and checked she isn't coming back and attempted to ask for help in repairing armory from borg but saw her flying towards me again and had to stop writing and fire at her. She was flying away from me in a straight line so i fired at her off-screen and assumed she will be in crit, floating away so i jumped towards direction she was flying away to recover her. After short time of flying i found she was standing and fired at her again, this time critting her, i noticed she was slowly healing and hit her couple of times with the gun to ensure she won't get up and started dragging her back to station into medbay. A newly arrived officer approached me in medbay and took the matter into her hands from that point on.

As written in note by Jinxy there is a leeway in such situation in regards to validhunting and i believe it applies exactly in that situation but sadly thats where our views part and we find ourselves here. When it was said i was "hunting", i believe thats just nitpicking as i personally would describe hunting as running around station/space and looking for some one, what i did is float not even that far from station (even if it's other z-level) towards offender and finnished them when they tried to heal expecting them to be in crit already. The entire "chase" i'm accused of took roughly 35 seconds.
I will try to answer any questions as fast I can.

Another thing to note: Conflicts are thing in citadel and antagonists are not exception from it just because of validhunting rule. I believe if some one punches me i can punch them back and if some one tries to kill me i am free to try to get them back in turn.

Trojan_Coyote
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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Trojan_Coyote »

"Given circumstances i have crafted my self a prod with bluespace crystal to defend my self just in case."

"then approached again to check if she is still doing it and wasn't scared of my announcement. This time she already had looted guns and went after me with more confidence, i accidentally got my self cornered in tight space between locker room and hos office so she managed to hit me couple of times but I pulled out my prod and teleported her away then ran into armory she just breached and grabbed two laser guns, I have noted that she didn't steal the energy vest which is commonly an objective and realised she is raiding armory just to terrorise a low pop station without sec or heads. I came out and checked she isn't coming back and attempted to ask for help in repairing armory from borg but saw her flying towards me again and had to stop writing and fire at her. She was flying away from me in a straight line so i fired at her off-screen and assumed she will be in crit, floating away so i jumped towards direction she was flying away to recover her. After short time of flying i found she was standing and fired at her again, this time critting her, i noticed she was slowly healing and hit her couple of times with the gun to ensure she won't get up and started dragging her back to station into medbay."

So you powergamed by arming just in case, then actively sought out the antag with the gear you had. After managing to get them away with your crystal, you ran into the armory in what I assume was an attempt to grab weapons, instead of just leaving. You THEN again had another chance to just leave after another fight, where you actively hunted them. You then put them into crit, and either hard crit or death to 'secure' them, where you then took them into custody.

So... You powergamed, sought out an antag on your own, then decided to pursue the antag instead of just leaving when you had the chance more than once. This is... Pretty cut and dry dude. The note deserves to stay, possibly with powergaming added to it.

Nayser
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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Nayser »

Trojan_Coyote wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:23 pm
"Given circumstances i have crafted my self a prod with bluespace crystal to defend my self just in case."

"then approached again to check if she is still doing it and wasn't scared of my announcement. This time she already had looted guns and went after me with more confidence, i accidentally got my self cornered in tight space between locker room and hos office so she managed to hit me couple of times but I pulled out my prod and teleported her away then ran into armory she just breached and grabbed two laser guns, I have noted that she didn't steal the energy vest which is commonly an objective and realised she is raiding armory just to terrorise a low pop station without sec or heads. I came out and checked she isn't coming back and attempted to ask for help in repairing armory from borg but saw her flying towards me again and had to stop writing and fire at her. She was flying away from me in a straight line so i fired at her off-screen and assumed she will be in crit, floating away so i jumped towards direction she was flying away to recover her. After short time of flying i found she was standing and fired at her again, this time critting her, i noticed she was slowly healing and hit her couple of times with the gun to ensure she won't get up and started dragging her back to station into medbay."

So you powergamed by arming just in case, then actively sought out the antag with the gear you had. After managing to get them away with your crystal, you ran into the armory in what I assume was an attempt to grab weapons, instead of just leaving. You THEN again had another chance to just leave after another fight, where you actively hunted them. You then put them into crit, and either hard crit or death to 'secure' them, where you then took them into custody.

So... You powergamed, sought out an antag on your own, then decided to pursue the antag instead of just leaving when you had the chance more than once. This is... Pretty cut and dry dude. The note deserves to stay, possibly with powergaming added to it.
Okay so you got a lot of things wrong here.

"So you powergamed by arming just in case" - I armed my self because there is no security and i know there is armed murderer on the loose, only i can protect my self here and it's a thing a lot of people know is allowed in such situation but i assume you don't know that. It would be powergaming if i armed my self before knowing there is a murderer or at least just an antagonist, besides, said weapon can be used exclusively for self defence, you just can't kill people with it, it only teleports them away.

"Actively sought out antag on your own." - I didn't, i just stumbled upon them on my path towards escape.

"Then decided to pursue the antag instead of just leaving when you had the chance more than once." - Not pursue, observe. A lot of the times antagonists are only after objectives so they don't touch me and i don't touch them in turn.

I feel like you haven't been reading what i wrote here as everything pretty much is explained there. You also need to get a feel for server and read on rules again.

Trojan_Coyote
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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Trojan_Coyote »

Yeah maybe antagonizing admins by saying "read the rules again" isn't a great idea when you're trying to say that your note was in error. Just in case is literally word for word in powergaming. The active pursual with gear is part of you 'observing' I assume. You say 'observe' yet you actively pursued. You didn't say anything about arming yourself in the armory instead of leaving unless 'observing' is your excuse. Pretty cut and dry validhunting. Don't antagonize staff either man.

Nayser
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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Nayser »

Trojan_Coyote wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:00 pm
Yeah maybe antagonizing admins by saying "read the rules again" isn't a great idea when you're trying to say that your note was in error. Just in case is literally word for word in powergaming. The active pursual with gear is part of you 'observing' I assume. You say 'observe' yet you actively pursued. You didn't say anything about arming yourself in the armory instead of leaving unless 'observing' is your excuse. Pretty cut and dry validhunting. Don't antagonize staff either man.
Sorry i didn't realise you are admin at first, it's not written anywhere in the forum, i only now understand red means admin.
As in case you say what i did is word for word powergaming i assume? Correct me if i'm wrong.
From rules:
Powergaming in SS13 is acquiring items, powers, increased levels of access, and other assets for the sake accruing as much power as possible, with little or no other motive. It is also a style of play in which one min/maxes their character or environment to complete an objective, to the exclusion of other elements such as roleplay and the mutual entertainment of other players.

From additional info:
In the event of a station-wide emergency, most of the parts of this rule can be disregarded (within reason). The line between what counts as an emergency and what doesn't is not explicitly definable; but, one can assume that if the lives of all or most of the crew are at stake, or if the station itself is at risk of total destruction, it can be counted as an emergency.

I believe quotted additional info counts also too given context of situation but i also outlined in blue part of powergaming rule that you most likely have missed. The motive for making a teleprod was present, it's reasoning is unarguable.

As for me not saying anything about arming my self in the armory. I very clearly wrote that i did just that in my original post, once again, please read what i wrote before judging me, you need to know all details and context first.

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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Trojan_Coyote »

I'll apologize on the 'just in case' quote, it seems that's not verbating anymore, though it is used in quite a few examples we usually use for powergaming. (grabbing weapons/powers/ect 'just in case') That one is my bad. The "not saying anything about arming in the armory" was not, in fact, about your original post, but your reply to my first post. Why would you arm yourself in the armory with two laser guns instead of attempting to leave when you had a very clear chance to?

Nayser
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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Nayser »

Trojan_Coyote wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:44 pm
I'll apologize on the 'just in case' quote, it seems that's not verbating anymore, though it is used in quite a few examples we usually use for powergaming. (grabbing weapons/powers/ect 'just in case') That one is my bad. The "not saying anything about arming in the armory" was not, in fact, about your original post, but your reply to my first post. Why would you arm yourself in the armory with two laser guns instead of attempting to leave when you had a very clear chance to?
Because i had an even clearer chance to arm my self and even the odds against my attacker. I don't want people to attack me without any danger to themselves just because there's no one to defend me. Like i said, had my attacker never harmed me, i wouldn't even reach for guns.
In short, i just got shot up and there's no one to defend me. Why WOULDN'T I take guns when i have a clear and easy opportunity and the fact that i need something to fight with as fast as possible?

Let's imagine i decide to leave instead. What happens next is he comes back to armory, loots it even more, goes back to station and procceeds to shoot up everyone including my self. I'd say trigger happy syndie with bag full of guns and no one to stop him counts as a threat to majority of crew. Such situation is covered in rules.

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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by CoffeeJinx »

Going to be honest your further explanation of your reasoning and self admitted actions make me want to alter or remove this note even less. I didn't log dive further then the initial incident of the fight and getting testimony from a few folks involved. Mostly because at the time it seemed rather clear cut to my personal opinion and interpretations of the rules.
This isn't just going off of the one incident this was me reading note history, knowing your previous behavior both sec/nonsec/head from an admin and player perspective. I knew what the antagonist did. Saw what damages they had caused and if you had just held your ground and killed them the note most likely wouldn't have exist to be honest, but factoring in that you actively hunted them down and with your own admittance wanted revenge against them? (The words of revenge have since been edited out, but I did mention that in the initial note itself and you did post those words previously)
It was clearly toeing the line of valid hunting at the very least adding in the other additions made me warrant a note for you. Unless someone really can make an argument I don't see myself changing this anytime soon. If someone can convince me otherwise I'll change the note happily.

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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Nayser »

CoffeeJinx wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:48 pm
Going to be honest your further explanation of your reasoning and self admitted actions make me want to alter or remove this note even less. I didn't log dive further then the initial incident of the fight and getting testimony from a few folks involved. Mostly because at the time it seemed rather clear cut to my personal opinion and interpretations of the rules.
This isn't just going off of the one incident this was me reading note history, knowing your previous behavior both sec/nonsec/head from an admin and player perspective. I knew what the antagonist did. Saw what damages they had caused and if you had just held your ground and killed them the note most likely wouldn't have exist to be honest, but factoring in that you actively hunted them down and with your own admittance wanted revenge against them? (The words of revenge have since been edited out, but I did mention that in the initial note itself and you did post those words previously)
It was clearly toeing the line of valid hunting at the very least adding in the other additions made me warrant a note for you. Unless someone really can make an argument I don't see myself changing this anytime soon. If someone can convince me otherwise I'll change the note happily.
Alright so the entire issue here as i understand is that i "actively chased" an antag.
Let's put into perspective that everything happened as i anticipated and she was in crit when i went after her to get her body. Then that just would be me getting her body and not hunting her.
To my surprise she was standing so ofcourse i shot. I also dislike overexaggeration of "actively chasing" phrase, the chase (if you can call it that) was brief and should be called brief chase to avoid misleading.

There are 2 issues here:

First is that you take phrase "actively hunting" to it's limit. To actively hunt is to do it actively. What i did here is stand still and fire, due to how zero-g works my foe was flying away because of firing at me despite wanting to get me, then thinking they were done i went to get their body. Even if we imagine i knew she was concious, in my eyes it would be active hunting if i didn't find her there and procceed to search for her instead of going back. Taking a short half minute flight towards some one is in no way actively hunting.

Second is that if she really was in crit as i thought at first, i'd just end up bringing her back and you wouldn't even be talking to me about it because it would be just me taking back their body, you do not take context of intention into account here.

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Re: [Main] H.I.Jinxy

Post by Krzyzstof_K »

Nayser wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:19 pm
Later i heard Lolli Whirlbel screaming for help and that that Venessa breached xenobiology from space. I have noted Lolli was taking oxygen and brute damage, equipped space gear and went to help them. When I arrived borg has already repaired the hole and Lolli seemed fine so i moved further around station towards escape.
I remember this specifically, they attempted to vent xenobiology and kill me for no intended reason at all, provided I also remember they had no objective to do so either. As I can remember the antag was gaming hard with security gear and space adaption, venting place as they pleased.

Security took forever to respond to the point I was gearing up with my remaining extracts to gear myself with my adamant armor and rebreather and fixed the original hole myself before they opened another window for...No reason again in particular which the borg began to seal.

I wouldn’t say your actions of targeting them for their mischief was bad at all as they WERE antagonizing people at their own accord with the space tiding.

My opinion on this? Pretty valid for someone who just vented places for unknown reasons especially with the new atmos system in place which makes the game quite more deadly. I hope this information proves help regardless, but I recommend talking to or bringing the persons reason in question who played the antag of their intentions because it seems to be lacking here to justify their actions to the objectives for that round.

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