RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

[Captain277]

Hello everyone! It's me! So there's a lot going on in this thread, and I'm going to do my best to go straight down the list to address everything here. Starting from the top:

...Captain seems to have encouraged this. / Even other players such as (CKeys) Skycave1 seem to believe that the premise itself is something that can be worked with and worked around. The idea of a subversive element or low-tier gang for on-station Security to handle.

I have, in fact, been tacitly encouraging the mentioned gang activity. I like the idea of lower-stakes antags being present that give Security some work to do. It's one of the things that I believe actually impacts the Security department's population. The Snake's population expanding so rapidly is definitely an unforseen development, although I think you're probably right about the more lax expectations of the gang appealing to the playerbase. We had very similar issues with Talon and Exploration, as many of us will recall. The reality is that the path of least resistance appeals to the majority, and it's difficult to legislate for that. The best way to offset the appeal of less rules for one side is to reward adherence to the rules followed by the other side. There are a variety of ways to do this - from making Security Policy less obtuse to figuring out more rewarding community or IC mechanisms. Security is my favorite department. I mained it for years, and I hold it to such high standards because I believe Security is generally the department most likely to negatively impact a player's round when played "incorrectly". I've perceived the Tunnel Snakes as something of a reward for Security. Here's an active group of petty criminals that can be investigated, checked, and arrested. I was very excited to see how Security would step up to handle the threat. Which brings us to:

According to her, in-character, she's an illegal "Visitor" that lives in maintenance and has stolen her ID. Prior to doing this, she had lived on the cold and bleak surface of the current map, Lythios (Rift, Atlas)...When pushed or questioned about this she completely refutes the idea that she might be lying, usually in a loud and crude fashion. This has happened with the majority of her backstory...

This is quite literally an admin issue. We expect players to adhere to roleplay standards as outlined in the Server Rules (Primarily Rule 3). Historically the Admin team has intervened whenever problem players exhibit backstories that are simply impossible or clash with the canon. This is the first time that I've been made aware of many of the complaints regarding Trixie's backstory. To my knowledge, she was secretly living on the station - I had no problem with that. I did not, however, know that she claims to have been living here prior to us. That's not in line with the lore and 100% isn't going to fly going forward. However, this is an Admin issue, and should be handled as such. This complaint is a mixture of IC/OOC issues, so I want to make sure we keep track of what is relevant where. Onwards.

...the gang has the full player membership of a normal department.

We can't really force people into departments against their interests. I understand the concerns here with manpower. Security does however start with significant advantages in terms of equipment. Security across SS13 is designed to be a powerful force, because it is always outnumbered. This sounds more to me like an issue with the amount of force Officers are willing to bring to bear. A three man Security team vs five lightly armed civilians should skew in Security's favor. Re-evaluating our use of force policies for Security might be worthwhile. This assumes someone is manning the department at all though. Your concerns about the Snakes having de facto command of the vessel whenever there's no Security around is still an issue. I believe in not hampering player expression whenever it's possible, and a "cap" on Snakes attendance is always going to be arbitrary. I do wonder if encouraging the rest of the crew to put up more resistance might be prudent, but this relates to the issue of most players being generally non-confrontational. The Snakes are broadly perceived as a "Security" problem. Perhaps Security doesn't realize how much leeway they have to respond to the threat. I've allowed the Tunnel Snakes to exist because I expected them to provide engagement for Security - not to make it less enjoyable.

Yet still the Tunnel Snakes will break into Security and steal weapons -- the job gear of Security -- among general mischief and chaos. The in-character reasoning for this is that they want to replace Security as a security force and take control away from NanoTrasen.

This is an excellent example of a very severe crime that's technically an Administrative issue. I was not aware the Snakes were doing this, and certainly not that they were doing it regularly. I don't believe I've ever seen this ahelped. If I had, I could have decided on Administrative action, or provided guidance to the active Security players. Going forward, I expect this to be fully prosecuted. If there's a Warden or a Head of Security, maintaining accountability of the Armory is vital to their job description. I would hazard going forward that if there is no Security presence, this is an Administrative issue, but if there is Security around, it's literally their responsibility to (a) protect dangerous equipment (b) investigate when dangerous equipment is found to be missing and (c) arrest and prosecute those who stole it.

...it has many tools for conducting any criminal activity: tools, a variety of illicit drugs, and a .357 derringer...

I didn't know about the derringer when this was fully merged in. Steps are already being taken to remove it. The Glukoz vendor, however, is something I'm generally positive about. There ought to be vectors for players to try and engage in illict activities that Security can then investigate.

You go on to discuss a lot of the issues with playing Security on the server. These are all cogent points and they bear further discussion in a more focused form. Amending Security policies is good, but you mention a personal awareness that you aren't fully enforcing the law. There's a difference between letting occasional breaches slide in context, and knowingly avoiding enforcing regulations because you don't want to step on people's toes. Sometimes toes need to be stepped on. Sometimes people do need to be arrested. If there's suspicion that someone has broken the law and there's a history of them breaking the law, then yes, concrete forensic evidence does help you, sure. But I'm pretty sure you can just arrest someone if you have probable cause. Code Green doesn't allow for random searching. If you notice tasers are missing, and you know the Tunnel Snakes have a history of stealing from Security, then it's fully within Security's rights to round them all up and search them.

To make this a more open discussion rather than me complaining at length, I have some suggestions as to how to resolve many of the issues currently posed.
First is that Trixie be spawned-in with admin intervention. This solves the problem of the gang having an implied presence at all times, with her ID being able to be modified into a 'stolen' variant that Security can easily identify. This gets away from Captain's implicit or express intent that Trixie and her gang are a 'hands off' form of conflict to any given round.
Secondly is to make Trixie a liar about some or all of what she claims. After all, she has records with Central Command, who have her DNA and fingerprint data, along with an ID issued (as implied when spawned in) from Central Command. This takes away agency from PrinceRoniko despite it ostensibly fixing half of the salient issue.
Third and last that I'll list is that an event be formed in one of two shapes: Either Trixie is empowered as the Head of Security like she wants to be, or Security is given a mandate by Central Command to deal with the Tunnel Snakes once and for all. This I feel would resolve the issues all at once (save the hideout) and allow for an engaging, if intense, round where both sides are in direct conflict, and Security need not act as if the gang is a new issue. The downsides would have to be that this is, again, against initial intent with allowing this behavior in the first place. Yet I feel that after this long and with many players' opinions and sides already decided, this would put a definitive end on this exact series of problems.

Okay so there's a fair amount to cover here, but I think I can respond to each point fairly concisely.
1. I don't think that forcing a player character to essentially be shifted to an "event" role is a good idea. It's bad for the health of the server, it sets a bad precedent, it's going to be unattractive to the player themselves, it puts additional strain on the Staff team, and it doesn't actually solve any of the core issues here.
2. Making Trixie a liar is basically mandatory. Now that the utter scope of the issues with the character's backstory have been made apparent, it's going to have to be addressed. It makes zero sense for anyone to have predated NanoTrasen's presence on the facility and then successfully infiltrated it on their own after stealing an ID card. This ties into a larger issue I have with the abuse of the "Visitor" job title, and how it sets up false expectations for the player's detachment from the Company. I think that should go up for review along with Trixie's inconsistent backstory.
3. The sad truth here is that this event should be unnecessary. "Security is given a mandate by Central Command to deal with the Tunnel Snakes once and for all" is the obvious path this course of action would need to take. However, Central is still unaware of the Tunnel Snakes as an issue IC due to an utter failure of reporting across the board, by my understanding. The lack of information I possessed OOC prior to this thread makes me believe that Central probably isn't being faxed or told about this IC either. But ultimately, Security shouldn't need a CC fax to be told to do their job. They should be hindering the gang's development and breaking it up themselves, and updating Command about exactly what's going on so informed choices can be passed down IC.

This concludes my response to the OP. I'm gonna do some quick-fire responses to other posts in the thread.
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Yea policy needs to be mildly more clear esp regarding previous round conduct as this isn't working.

The issues regarding maps will be sorted. I encourage soft antagonism IC.
I however, do not want the development direction of the server as a whole to side with anyone.
A derringer is not okay, and while I did say it was whatever to add a maint hideout without associating it with anyone, it is not okay to put it close enough to security to being abused.

With no offense to anyone, the codebase is to remain completely disjunct from your IC issues. I believe the lore people for atlas need to be talked with for what's going on with that but far as I'm concerned codebase wise we are not to encourage any one side with the game's systems. The map is one of those systems.

Kevin sums up my overall stance much more succinctly in this post. I believe he and I are in agreement based on this. Things like the derringer aren't kosher, but soft antagonism IC is important to the long term health of the server, and this will be an excellent case study going forward on how we ultimately handle these situations. Kevin's mandate against corrupt CCOs is also something I completely endorse and enforce.

I'll skip direct quotes for the other comments because this post is already getting too long. Essentially, what you're all stating over and over is that Security just isn't doing their job to the full extent. Oldie states that "...the gang can operate pretty much without any danger or risk". This is 100% a Security and Command problem. I've allowed the Snakes to persist specifically under the assumption that Security was engaging with them and suppressing them to at least some extent. I think that punishing admins, punishing contributors, or PKing Trixie are choices that go way too far and absolutely send the wrong message. I'm not going to be doing anything of the sort.

Okay I lied, one final quote.

I would first like to add that I also ICLY asked about Trixie's explanation for her presence at the station, and she admitted openly in front of the warden (Mike Brennan) that she had fact, been using a stolen ID ICly, obviously because of how the game works that's not represented, but that's an IC thing.

You guys 100% should've arrested Trixie and faxed Central the instant you heard this. C'mon.

[HHgregg]

While the onus is on security to arrest Trixie for admitting to being a literal intruder and squatter, it is ALREADY known information, except it's not on their record, and they continue to join the station. Logically and ICLY, what's the point of dealing with it if there is no actual real consequence? Additionally, maybe extra attention should have been paid to the "soft antags" (again, I vehemently believe it is just self antagging at this point) whom you endorse, and continue to support.

I think the support of what is literally bald behavior is bad precedent, and invites a quality risk without any regulation. We need a white list for this kind of thing, and we need more from antags then "im asshole on comms, I'm now gonna hack into sec." AND we need higher roleplay standards. As we've seen from trixie, absolutely NO one, particularly not you captain who has been supporting their behavior, noted the fact they were going against lore, when it was common knowledge amongst those who've interacted with her.

[Merne23]

This is quite literally an admin issue. [...]

To note, I ahelped about it, as I said here...

More so than this, when I pressed the issue about Trixie having her ID illegally to an ahelp, the responding admin (CKey) FreestylaLT didn't seem to take an official response, simply deleting the item at some point so that she no longer had it. This was noted by the player in LOOC when they noticed, and if this was not the action taken then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

And Free was similarly bewildered by what Trixie may have done or said wrong enough to warrant action. I explained it in the best way I could when asked, but I'm not sure if that translated very well.

As to "guys do your job", the actions taken ICly after the admittance was asking for her ID. But I couldn't just walk away from the Lobby as Warden when there was ostensibly a situation for me to overwatch (two characters engaged in a dispute that may have turned for the worse), and she refused. I felt it prudent to ahelp the issue as I did feel it warranted it, but as I was (as usual) alone in the department I didn't move to fax about it. Or arrest her at the same time as the player responded to an ahelp as I thought they may have to do.

[Captain277]

Those are all very fair points, and add even more context to the situation. Overall it sounds like the information wasn't being discussed enough amongst the staff, based on what you're reporting. Generally the Staff will handle issues in the moment and not report it broadly to the rest of the team. (It'd honestly be a little unreasonable to expect them all to both report minor things like these frequently and keep track of them all as well.) So until it comes up as a larger issue, most of us will "fix" part of a problem and assume it's solved until told otherwise.

[PrinceRoniko]

I wish to start off this post by saying I am VERY bad with considering large posts like have been made on this forum, so I may miss some points or fail to address some things here, but I will try my best! If I do miss any concerns my discord is the same name and i leave my dms open for this very reason! I am always willing to hear what people think about my characters and I WANT input. My characters aren't just sole gimmicks that are stuck as they are without admin development, i am willing to slide things around for fun in the rp setting. I am open to ideas and notes so please do not be scared to talk to me directly about Trix.

So starting from the top, yes Trixie was initially perceived to mess with security and give them reasons to exercise their law enforcing legs a bit with a character that is meant to cause problems with them. It has been mentioned before that over time she has gotten less overall hostile, that isn't just me getting lazy, that's because some members of the station have been putting effort forward to show her that things aren't so bad through actually showing her that she is cared about by said people. she is meant to be adaptable to how the people of the station interacts with her, if you return her antagonations, she will give them back and get aggressive. Likewise, people who have de-escalated situations with her got her to calm down and talk, and as a result become less hostile. Sadly most people just ignore her and leave her to her devices which of course wouldn't do things to change her either way. There is a very explicit reason why she hasn't been breaking into Security anymore. (not counting that one time she did it in front of Mike intentionally for lewd reasons) That reason being that she has been talked down from it for the most. It is true that Trixie has been encouraged by captain, and up until this moment, all I've heard from others about Trix was that people liked her concept and that she was a good character. Had I known there was people who had problems with them i would have asked about them directly, because at the end of the day the most important thing for me is for everyone else to have fun with her too. Becoming an annoyance was the one thing I wanted to avoid!

Now I do believe I saw someone asking about Trixies end game? well truthfully I had 3 things in mind, because against belief, Trixie is not meant to be a permanent fixture as she is.

1)This is the least likely outcome, but she has ambitions to take over the station by peaceful declaration of independence when she gets the whole station on her side. She wholly intends to make friends with everyone on atlas and declare themselves a independent state. Expecting NT to send people to reclaim it from here, where when push comes to shove she will give herself up to NT to spare everyone else. Again, the least likely outcome for her

2) is security actually tries to talk her down from her anti NT delusions and actually tries to make her understand how things work inside the corporation and make her understand that if she REALLY wants to protect the station, its to work for security and start playing nice. In this event, Trixie would take her gang and join NT properly.

3) She causes too much problems or goes too far one day and NT super troops come to either take her away or kill her on the spot, which I have gone onto record to say that if she is killed in round and marked as DNR she will be perma-ed, I have zero problem with that.

All of these things I am fully willing to play out to end this rebellion arc, at the end of the day Trixie is meant to play a story and developed, she has not been taken away for perma yet, she legit stays on the station none stop, she has never been taken off. If she had, I wouldn't have a problem with her being perma-ed. As for her refusing to discuss her backstory in deeper detail, that's a her as a character thing, if you had any questions, I as a play, again, always have my DMs open for this very reason. I also remember there being examples of an old Soft Antag? Yeah I know nothing about that at all, that has not been mentioned to me, as far as I knew I was the first to play a soft antag in a way that the admins were accepting. Had I known there were so many that had so many issues with Trix I honestly would have reached out, but the only people who were willing to talk to me about Trix all were telling me how much they loved her as a character and loved to hate her in game.

That being said I greatly apologize for any discomfort, anger, annoyance, or ill feelings I have caused... All I wanted was to make a unique changing experience with Trix where her character was slowly molded by those around her. i didn't realize the change was happening too slow for so many... and I will aim to do better with her, if she is not killed out right... The talks of being banned over this kind of make me wish to take a small break regardless... I tried my best to be open about her development and the idea of me being banned was something that is desired kind of brings me down from the excitement I felt... I hope this at least helps a little... Thank you for reading this to those who do and again, my DMs on discord are always open, under the same name there. so please message me if you have any further problems with my characters in the future. I try my best to be agreeable.

Also at the very end I've seen stuff about Trixies backstory? That is 100% up for workshop, the first time I was mentioning how long she has been hiding around having been for 3 years just sneaking around Atlas Maint. I was told Atlas wasn't even here for that long, then I mentioned "Oh so she would be here before Atlas was?" And the response was 'Guess so' So I took that as soft acceptance, This is a problem on my side I take full responsibility on, and I will happily get with the admins to work out a better more cohesive story.

[Knightfall5]

The fact this complaint exists is a complete travesty. A few people have an issue with something and instead of dealing with it in character by doing actual security investigations, holding tribunals, and faxing Central we get forum complaints that drive off the player in question and put the entire thing in limbo. How are we supposed to ever integrate any antagonism if light shit like this is such a big deal it absolutely just cannot be handled in character? Has ANYONE complaining about this actually bothered to, you know, do a bit of investigative work? Fax Central about their supposedly stolen ID and if they are even allowed to be on station?

When I heard about this arc coming back after a couple week break (really bad timing it seems) I was hyped up to do some actual long term investigative work and spent multiple shifts setting stuff up, interacting with people inside and out of the gang, and working on gathering evidence. Now almost none of them join, Trixie's player has essentially left the server, and the arc is dead for the dozen plus players who were actually engaging with it. This complaint needs to get tossed in the bin where it belongs and players reassured they aren't going to get banned when the majority of people interacting with them are actually having fun.