RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Merne23
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RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by Merne23 »

BYOND Name of complaint against: Captain277; but as I'll get into it's not specifically them.

Your BYOND name: Merne23

Date of issue and round ID: 23/24 October 2022. No round ID, but time between 12AM and 5AM for reasoning behind the complaint. As stated, an ongoing issue.

Reason for complaint: This one's a bit involved but I'll start and end with a tl;dr here.

My foremost reason for making this complaint is the current roleplaying standard and how it's being affected by a character played by one (CKey) PrinceRoniko. Their behavior has been tacitly if not expressly been encouraged by Captain, who is as I understand the RP server headmin, should such a role exist.

I'll be going into the details of why I feel the need to voice my complaint now, and summarize my thoughts as bullet points.

Let me preface this by saying that this is a community issue and thereby no one person's fault -- despite what the formatting and preamble may otherwise mark. But over the course of the past two months (or so, general timeframe) the character of Trixie Venomo, played by PrinceRoniko, has been enabled to act in a sort of 'soft antag' role. As I understand it the premise of the character was to 'give Security something to do' and after some time of play Captain seems to have encouraged this. Trixie is a loud, proud, and unabashed anti-Corporate gang member and leader. Her gang is called the Tunnel Snakes, and at time of writing I believe that this gang has five members including Trixie. I'll come back to this point.

The issue is again not with Captain nor PrinceRoniko here. Initially meeting Trixie in-character as the Head of Security Mike Brennan things went about as we both expected. There was antagonism there to the point that I felt it prudent to advise them on how they might be more conducive to roleplay. Even other players such as (CKeys) Skycave1 seem to believe that the premise itself is something that can be worked with and worked around. The idea of a subversive element or low-tier gang for on-station Security to handle.

This starts to break down immersion when there is no Security to foil, as Trixie's backstory ties directly into the lore of the setting and thereby player investiture. According to her, in-character, she's an illegal "Visitor" that lives in maintenance and has stolen her ID. Prior to doing this, she had lived on the cold and bleak surface of the current map, Lythios (Rift, Atlas). Presumably she did this by herself, without any outside assistance, and without anyone catching her for trespassing on what is ostensibly a blacksite. When pushed or questioned about this she completely refutes the idea that she might be lying, usually in a loud and crude fashion. This has happened with the majority of her backstory which I will not get into, but characters played by (CKey) 0Roxas0, Skycave1, and Atlas OHare have all done this to my knowledge.

I'll come back to my other point now: the gang has the full player membership of a normal department. Five players, each acting out different roles, with different specialties and characteristics. This gang is by its very nature supposed to conflict with Security. Security as a department regularly only gets one to three players per round. At many times the department is left empty. Yet still the Tunnel Snakes will break into Security and steal weapons -- the job gear of Security -- among general mischief and chaos. The in-character reasoning for this is that they want to replace Security as a security force and take control away from NanoTrasen.

Furthermore from this is the fact that there appears to have been an area mapped in ostensibly "for" the gang to use as a base of operations: an area directly adjacent to the Brig. More than that, it has many tools for conducting any criminal activity: tools, a variety of illicit drugs, and a .357 derringer. In addition the area serves as a resting point as it is a functional bar. This makes the second of such areas in maintenance. I admittedly don't know who added this area, or when, but it is a well-established fact that the area is used by the Tunnel Snakes, and that they will threaten anyone who enters it without their permission. Mind you, that with a rather minimal amount of effort, from this base, the members of this gang could create an escape point should any of their members become "perma" prisoners, or even just their usual activity of breaking into the Brig.

This becomes a compounding issue when you take into account the rules and regulations that Security, as a department, must adhere to or face very real consequences. Security is not authorized to act on anything outside of a character's records, which are made by the player in question, or any action from a previous round. To my knowledge a 'reputation' is allowed, but that is not actionable unless and until a character is reported for a crime. Further still is the restriction on Security's behavior on the typical code level of Green. Officers and other department members require actionable data about what is happening in maintenance areas, where the gang spends much of their time.

One could argue that this is excellent for Security to practice and engage with the round itself, but this ignores an important facet: Security's membership due to all these high expectations and strict regulation is low. Extremely low. I mentioned this before, but it's often simply a challenge to have more than two members in the department at any given time. More to the point, this drives people actively away from Security, and in at least one case has driven a character directly to the gang itself. Fahne Lu (Ckey unknown) did this at the time stated; after feeling intimidated by the expectations and my own character (again, Mike Brennan), they went directly to Trixie and accepted an offer to join the gang.

More than anything else, to get back to the point about this being a detriment to roleplaying standards. Trixie as a character does not seem to have had any development or change over the past two months, aside from her initial hostility being tuned down. She constantly and consistently talks poorly about the Company, other crewmen, arms herself for combat, threatens other crew. When talked to by most she will react with open hostility. Again this ties back to being a Security issue, which rebounds back into the fact that Security has low membership. There is another issue here that relates to me: that as a player I am not being strict enough with the in-character regulations.

I'll be frank. I hate the idea that I'm playing my own character incorrectly, or even just playing my chosen role poorly after feeling like I have a decent handle on all the restrictions that Security does have. I despise the idea that I must be in the wrong somehow for enabling people to get off from in-character crimes with only the minimal amount of offenses. This is a game, and people want to have fun. However this kind of behavior (especially recently) only seems to embolden other players to -- or lack of a better term -- fuck around and find out. Despite being warned, threatened, or otherwise told of the in-character consequences of their actions, many characters affect a nonchalant attitude towards doing crime. Given how Security, again, requires actionable information to pursue criminals, many players feel that there is no consequence for their actions. Either the issue is minor and Security does not want to deal with it, or the issue is so severe that admin intervention is required.

All of this culminates in behavior that irritates many players, myself very much included, from both Trixie and her gang as well as the crew at large. The reason that I feel the need to make a formal complaint about this is, again, that this behavior has been either encouraged or tacitly agreed to by Captain. More so than this, when I pressed the issue about Trixie having her ID illegally to an ahelp, the responding admin (CKey) FreestylaLT didn't seem to take an official response, simply deleting the item at some point so that she no longer had it. This was noted by the player in LOOC when they noticed, and if this was not the action taken then I apologize for the misunderstanding. What my point from these interactions is meaning to say is that the RP staff seems to think that all of this is an IC issue -- but this has not been made clear to me or many others. Such players include (CKey) HHgregg, yourdoom9898, and SomeOldie.

To make this a more open discussion rather than me complaining at length, I have some suggestions as to how to resolve many of the issues currently posed.
First is that Trixie be spawned-in with admin intervention. This solves the problem of the gang having an implied presence at all times, with her ID being able to be modified into a 'stolen' variant that Security can easily identify. This gets away from Captain's implicit or express intent that Trixie and her gang are a 'hands off' form of conflict to any given round.
Secondly is to make Trixie a liar about some or all of what she claims. After all, she has records with Central Command, who have her DNA and fingerprint data, along with an ID issued (as implied when spawned in) from Central Command. This takes away agency from PrinceRoniko despite it ostensibly fixing half of the salient issue.
Third and last that I'll list is that an event be formed in one of two shapes: Either Trixie is empowered as the Head of Security like she wants to be, or Security is given a mandate by Central Command to deal with the Tunnel Snakes once and for all. This I feel would resolve the issues all at once (save the hideout) and allow for an engaging, if intense, round where both sides are in direct conflict, and Security need not act as if the gang is a new issue. The downsides would have to be that this is, again, against initial intent with allowing this behavior in the first place. Yet I feel that after this long and with many players' opinions and sides already decided, this would put a definitive end on this exact series of problems.

That TL;DR I mentioned:
  • Trixie isn't believable in-universe if we take all of her claims at face value, which impacts RP.
  • Captain has either privately or publically endorsed 'soft antag' behavior for the sake of content and player engagement.
  • Security players have five whole wiki articles to read if they want to do he role 'right', and this drives off most players.
  • The Tunnel Snakes as a gang have been allowed by players and admins both with a lot of freedom to act up until now.
Again, I'm not trying to lay any blame at anyone in specific despite having two nominally direct complainants. I recognize responsibility for this myself. This is a community issue, and I want it to be brought to account rather than fester like it's been doing.
If your character or CKey is not mentioned above please relate yourself to the topic, if you do have input. I apologize if anyone wished to remain anonymous, and will redact as requested.

Silicons
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by Silicons »

Preliminary question since I'm attempting to overhaul our policy a bit.

What's the perceived issues with security policy?
Is it the rules against acting on previous rounds and carrying investigations over?
Please elaborate as I do want our stuff sorted out ASAP.

Merne23
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by Merne23 »

The salient point I was making is this:
Security is a difficult department to play while still being fun, either for one side or the other.

My statement on it implies that overall Security is being too lenient, but if we shift the slider too far to the other end, it would just be Shitcurity, and nobody likes Shitcurity.

I didn't want to make it the subject of the complaint in specific, as I genuinely don't know how best to modify the IC and OOC expectations that Security has. My two salient points are: The Tunnel Snakes, and the way that they're being endorsed. The rest just... feeds into it.

Silicons
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by Silicons »

Yea policy needs to be mildly more clear esp regarding previous round conduct as this isn't working.

The issues regarding maps will be sorted. I encourage soft antagonism IC.
I however, do not want the development direction of the server as a whole to side with anyone.
A derringer is not okay, and while I did say it was whatever to add a maint hideout without associating it with anyone, it is not okay to put it close enough to security to being abused.

With no offense to anyone, the codebase is to remain completely disjunct from your IC issues. I believe the lore people for atlas need to be talked with for what's going on with that but far as I'm concerned codebase wise we are not to encourage any one side with the game's systems. The map is one of those systems.

Silicons
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by Silicons »

Furthermore, after previous incidents with the RP server I'm also mandating that admins aren't to have centcom be corrupt without explicit authorization from captain. Not saying it already happened, just making a note of it now.

This means until then, any issues can be cleared up with a fax. Weird security issues mostly, because you'll be default, always have central command siding with the proper side of the law.

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SpessInquisitor
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by SpessInquisitor »

I don't have any administrative power over somebody's backstory; I can only tell them to cut it out if they're lore doesn't make sense, or is contradictory. Somebody who actively fucks around on rounds with little to no security presence, or exploits such a thing, should be put under more scrutiny.

I'd like to figure out how far Trixie intends to develop their character, or if it's just an excuse to do soft-antag stuff.

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Gordon Feetman
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by Gordon Feetman »

Sounds like a joined issue of security being afraid to act, and players abusing the map & lax punishments IC and OOC to make problems on purpose.

Don't be afraid to make a bad arrest and impact another player's fun. Worst case scenario you get an admin pm and somebody cries.

SomeOldie
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by SomeOldie »

Right, so I guess my first post on the forums will be to give my two cents here. :P

I'll start with this: I like having a soft antag, I like the Tunnel Snakes conceptually, but they are really getting to be annoying. And I'm getting concerned about farther-reaching effects.

The problem isn't even necessarily Trixie, though I'll say the general personality of the character doesn't help. The problem is - like Merne alluded to - that the gang can operate pretty much without any danger or risk. There doesn't seem to be any regard for consequences. They just do crimes, and when one of the few security players we have does book them on something... It's, what, twenty minutes in the brig at most? And they can do that every round, with no persisting consequences. There's no real punch, no real way of dealing with them.

But the Tunnel Snakes don't have that restriction. They can carry grudges between rounds. They can build themselves up between rounds. They can generally impact the crew between rounds. So they're steadily gaining power and influence that persists while nothing Security can meaningfully do against them does. Security's locked into a losing battle because they're basically toothless to do anything about the Tunnel Snakes until they do something fax-worthy.

Now, I might be imagining it, because I play the local Space British bartender-turned-pencilpusher, but this seems to be creating an air of lawlessness around the station. Security won't/can't do anything about the openly present gang - why shouldn't I go busting into some area on the station I'm not supposed to be in? Yeah, we're on the Frontier, there's some wiggle room for the law, and as far as I can tell most of characters had a tenuous relationship with authority before this anyway, but it feels like things are going beyond just the "normal" amount of lawlessness you'd expect.

I don't know what to say about the immersion factor. There's a giant cave of spiders right outside of Arrivals that is probably more of a danger to the crew on an average shift than the Tunnel Snakes, and Central has yet to hire pest control for that, so I don't know how much I can say that Central would give a crap. But the fact that there seems to be no recourse against an at least mildly violent gang that is trying to claim the station for itself is immersion-breaking. Having to make up IC excuse after IC excuse as to why the Tunnel Snakes aren't being treated like the serious threat they'd realistically be seen as just so we don't chase out our sole antag is immersion-breaking

And, frankly? It's just grating and boring after a while. Every round the Tunnel Snakes are present, it's 'corpo' this and 'seccie pig' that. Let's break into shit and be a general nuisance for giggles. It's gotten to a point where seeing someone I know is in the Tunnel Snakes spawn in doesn't make me think "oh, there might be some interesting conflict this round," it makes me think "oh boy, this round probably just got three times as annoying because it feels like their members can't just sit around, drink, and play cards by themselves for one shift or two."

I think the whole Tunnel Snakes thing began as a fun gag, but it's outstayed its welcome. I don't think Trixie's character needs to be dictated by someone else or any of what she's set up needs to be micromanaged by an admin. But I do think that either the Tunnel Snakes need to be toned back a bit, or that Security and Command need to be given more resources/leeway to meaningfully combat them.

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PlumeOfSmoke
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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by PlumeOfSmoke »

After having read this and personally having a lot of experience with soft antag characters I'll talk about that first. This entire thing feels extremely unfair and worrying. Anytime I previously operated as a soft antag I basically was expected to obtain permission from an admin on a round by round basis, to lose my character should I be caught due to firing or prison, and effectively not do ANYTHING antagonistic without enough security or admins around. Back when I was robbing the vault, map changes were made but said changes secured the vault and armory further as was needed and the change effectively was an NT response in my mind to these things occurring. For a while some security players even put sensors in the armory and actually upped their efforts due to it in following rounds which I thought was extremely cool.

Moving on with my view on this situation. If Trixie is breaking into high security areas for no reason, like the armory or others, antagonizing sec without admin permission on a round by round basis, and coming back following punishments or IC "termination" (which gets complicated because she isn't an employee but if that's the case after being caught and hauled off after one shift she should effectively be PKd) I'd say the player should be noted or even banned, at the very least almost immediately be PK'd and instructed what they did wrong. The fact a player has been allowed a recurring and well known antagonistic character of this nature to go on so long, is a complete and utter failure on the part of administration for upkeeping character standards.

More onto the admins, any admins who encouraged the behavior over multiple rounds without supervision should have their position re-evaluated. This sounds extremely biased or like a severe case of gross ineptitude/negligence that cannot be overlooked.

As for the maint mapping, that's extremely fucked. As mentioned earlier, my behavior robbing the armory and other such areas led to a generalized buffing of them to cease the activity and show NT taking steps to prevent it from occurring ever again. Someone in this case adding in maint rooms directly next to high security areas specifically made for one player's (or their group's) advantage with antagonistic items inside isn't right and to me feels like a rotten apple ruining the bunch. The fact this got past our maintainers shows they too are not doing their due diligence, ensuring PRs that change things like this aren't pushed, or that the good will they had for people making PRs is now going to have to be put in question because someone abused their relaxed nature. Making this effect everyone and pushing more work onto the maints isn't good, so perhaps only the original person who made this PR should be singled out but something should be done.

TLDR:
-Associated admins should be re-evaluated/removed and punished for gross negligence
-Trixie should be PK'd and their player should be noted/banned temporarily
-Map changes made in favor of this specific player should be reverted/remove and the person who PR'd it should be punished or have their PR's more thoroughly reviewed in the future

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Re: RP: Captain277 - Ongoing Issue Complaint

Post by HHgregg »

As someone directly mentioned, I will give my two cents though I cannot guarantee they will be coherent, my brain is scrambled while writing.

I would first like to add that I also ICLY asked about Trixie's explanation for her presence at the station, and she admitted openly in front of the warden (Mike Brennan) that she had fact, been using a stolen ID ICly, obviously because of how the game works that's not represented, but that's an IC thing. It is, however, no surprise that Trixie does, in fact, not work for NanoTrasen, as she openly admits as such, and her continued presence around the station when the closest thing she seems to have to an occupation or role is "Career Criminal", is why I asked why she's still here. She is a KNOWN criminal and has openly and vocally declared her plans to overthrow the station before, which makes her continued persistent presence immersion-breaking. As it has been pointed out by SomeOldie it is not immersion ruining, Afterall, NT won't even deal with the spider nest. However, the difference I find is we hold players to RP standards. We don't hold NPC spiders to RP standards.

Note, I am specifically saying Trixie, and not the Tunnel Snakes. This is because the Tunnel Snakes themselves, are almost nothing without Trixie. As SomeOldie pointed out, "it's 'Corpo' this and 'secure pig' that." This is particular verbal behavior exhibited exclusively by Trixie, and the crimes he goes on to mention, I.E breaking and entering, were perpetrated primarily by Trixie in all instances I have firsthand knowledge of. I have personally witnessed Trixie hack into security checkpoints, and engineering and other misc criminal shit. The remainder of the Tunnel Snakes are in every encounter i've had with them just groupies. Skol, and Kai, who are the two main tunnel snakes aside from trixie, do little other than following Trixie around and act as a self-esteem team. Skol maybe hoards contraband, but like, who doesn't, That's not a real issue. I don't know of them doing anything particularly criminal, but that's just my personal knowledge

I like Trixie's player, and Trixie was a cute gimmick at first, but now it's worn thin and is growing to be a problem, and not a novelty. I don't think Trixie's player should be overly punished, warned, and noted, but nothing serious. I think, however, we should re-evaluate so-called "Soft-Antags" entirely. Trixie was labeled a "Soft-Antag" for being an asshole on comms and breaking into places, but that's basically just what a bald graytider does, yet we afford them no clemency or compliment. What we really have here, is a Self-Antag, which has basically been allowed to persist because there is a misconception that it's interesting beyond the first week of it's presence.

TLDR apply for clown whitelist if you wanna do this shit.

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