[RP] Mouseofthecake - Subtler Emote Copy+Pasting

[Jaybirdnerd]

Good evening,

I would like to take a moment and state for the record the following events that have taken place beyond this specific forum thread. There is far more evidence that has come to light about the person who has posted this particular complaint to the board and the intents behind it that span far beyond simple case matters in which MouseOfTheCake (Herein referred to as Mouse) is in either the wrong or the right. This post is, functionally, a huge nothingburger case made in order to press senior administration to forcefully eject or remove Mouse from the staff team (Read: Rallying the troops to banish someone with a bullshit cause because they aren't 100% around all the time).

To humor the case, and speak directly to the situation: Mouse should not have done what he had done, I do agree with this. However, this stated this is something that any other admin could have done in similar standing and not have the entire forum boards in riot over it. This is a classical case of "Please do not do this again" as it was never made a public matter until now, and very well could have stayed between the administrative team/could have been handled behind the iron curtain rather than sat in the public eye. This is something we could have fully handled independant of making it public knowledge and a huge problem internally as opposed to a very public forum thread, which mind you also humiliates players involved due to the dramaticized instances at hand.

Furthermore, speaking from evidence posted: Charles_Wedge (Event Manager) and Trojan_Coyote (Administrator) are seen in the above photographs used as evidence shown carrying on in a typical banter about the instance instead of chastising or reprimanding Mouse for his actions. This works as proof to show that this sort of happenstance isn't as serious as it is being made out to be in this post. In such: If this case is fully meant functionally to punish Mouse instead of the expected showing out in order to fully push them out of the team, would it not have been worthwhile to repremand the two mentioned for not taking action against Mouse as well? Why did they react the way they did if it's something truly abbhorrent? Would you not expect the other two staff members to react accordingly similar to Monara should this be such a huge ordeal?

I've spoken to one side of the player(s) involved, gotten an assessment of the situation on their end, and have been made fully aware of the fact that they are personally uncaring towards the situation. Yes, the other player may have apprehension, but it's obvious that Monara spoke to them before having actually been made aware of the case at hand fully and what it's purpose was beyond just simply punishing an admin for a poor choice that, mind you, is something that based on polarized reactions from both parties seems something that isn't a huge ordeal and on top of that seems to be blown way out of proportion despite it being internally mentioned and not made a public matter until this thread.

More than that, It's of my personal opinion that Monara is interested in having Mouse removed from the staff team based on internal context unshareable to public threads. It is to my personal understanding that this entire forum thread complaint is their way of pushing to have this happen instead of the simple 'ask them to step down' or 'have them step down' methods traditional to our small community when it comes that time for admins to do as such. Gathering information from what I've understood and based around my personal take on this happenstance it seems like Monara is trying to push Mouse out of the community by way of pressuring senior staff to remove them with humiliating posts such as this. This is blatant bullying the person out of the community, as well as publically shaming or humiliating them if them being removed by staff is not enough. It is of my personal viewpoint that the behaviors mentioned are in full display on this forum. It is also not uncommon for Monara to twist things in this manner based on experience with them.

To simplify the entire situation by my personal purview: Yes, mouse did do something bad but it is not something that warrants this level of reaction, especially made public. This entire forum thread is a step too far and proves itself to be a thinly disguised effort to shove another player if not another staff member out of the community by either humiliating, bullying, or socially manipulating players and admins in order to have them stand against a person that Monara personally wants rid of. What's next, is ZeldaZackman going to do some very insignificant thing and then get himself ejected by way of Monara's social manipulative behaviors? If so, that's a shame, because Zelda and Mouse are good people that don't deserve this level of rediculous kangaroo court behaviors.

Thank you for your time in reading my post.

-Jay

[SpessInquisitor]

What the fuck, dude.

No, I mean it, the admin’s ability to see subtler/anti-ghost messages should be limited even further if THIS is how one of our admins, who’s been solid in the past, is going to act when seeing it. Mouse clearly forgot his place in this, and trying to deflect it doesn’t change the fact that you’ve exposed that admins can just freely comment on these scenes, let alone reposting them in fucking admin chat.

Sort your shit out.

[Nik707]

No longer admin man with lots of experience and somehow is still admin on forum opinion coming in hot as fuck right now so get your seatbelts ready.

I see literally no excuse for how this is handled, and the ones suggested are iffy at best. There has been constant debate regarding admins seeing subtler text, with the majority of players I've seen being against it, because they feel that it's an unneeded breach of their privacy for a minor concern. Some of the excuses I've seen here are laughable, at best. I'll go through just a few I remember, and I can't be fucked to quote people so meh.

IRT: Previous "shitstorms"
My brothers in the Lord's Land, the last 'noncon drama' of any real note was literally years ago. There hasn't been any serious noncon drama of any note in so long, I can't even recall the last one. If you're unironically worried about drama reoccuring years later to the level that you're going to act in this manner, you really need to learn to let things go and give some trust to the players. That's ridiculous.

IRT: Copying the post was easier than naming.
This isn't even an excuse, it's so stupid I don't understand why someone would think this is realistic. Bro how does it take you longer to type a name than to copy a paragraph in our janky textbox. Yes, it's true any admin COULD have just gone and checked logs, but there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to copy a post verbatim. The admins in a-say didn't need this information to make an opinion, and it had no bearing on the situation. Just.. don't do this. Ever.

IRT: Concerns about in-round implications/Subtler isn't an excuse
My Brother in the Light of the Glorious Allah.
This is the definition of an IC-Issue. If they were dumb enough to get caught, that's on them and we should TRUST OUR PLAYERS to handle it IC before we start sweating bullets in a-say and copying posts and babysitting them in ghost. They were in an area with restricted access to which no one else was able to enter. And this meme about "oh just cus subtler doesn't mean you can lol" Bro I was an admin for fucking years and we constantly saw people subtle-ERPing in bars in the corner. You know what we did? Literally nothing but maybe had a slight chuckle at the absurdity and then did nothing. Never have I ever seen someone actually do anything to enforce subtler being used in "realistic" ways and I would love any fucking example of when this was done so I can laugh at it for being an absurd waste of everyone's time.

And a final note. Jay, an admin has absolutely no place to bring out personal accusations of some weird vendetta in a public thread like this. You're literally undermining the entire staff team by making this weird, unfounded accusation while claiming that no one else would get this level of heat for it. You are literally complaining about something you yourself are doing in your post, and it's just a really shit look to be mad something was brought public while also doing that same thing with weird accusations that undermine your entire teams cohesion. The fact that two specific admins didn't find problem with it in the moment has absolutely no bearing on whether or not this situation is worthy of concern and possible reprimand, and I think it's hilarious that it'd be used as an excuse. I can outright say that the RP staff team is probably the least cohesive team I've ever really worked with, and no one seems to have a strong desire to work on that. Every time there was a decision to be made, the discussion would always start with people on VERY far ends of the argument which eventually had to be settled somewhere in the middle. The Staff team is far from a monolith, and 2 staff not seeing an issue with something is far from evidence to anyone's point or even worth noting in any capacity. If anything, your last point is right- those two staff members should to some degree fall on the sword too for not seeing this as an issue, and anyone on staff who actually has no issue here should probably stop and reassess with player desires in mind, because I should remind you, the last time this came up the majority of players I personally saw were all for restricting admins from seeing subtler unless they used specific log diving tools, which are themselves logged. The player's involved opinions are IMPORTANT, but not entirely relevant to the problem of mishandling of in round, sensitive information. Just because these two might be cool, the next two very much may NOT be. Your speculations on Monara's ultimate "goals" are based on evidence you say you can't share, which means it doesn't exist for the purposes of this thread, and it shouldn't be brought up. I won't go into that again, though. I COMPLETELY fail to understand this idea that this should have been handled privately. Can anyone explain to me why a PLAYER has to take this route of a forum complaint on an issue with an admin or other player, but somehow admins should be expected not to take these same routes as players? Why are admins special in this? They certainly shouldn't be, and this is *NOT* the first time an admin has made a forum complaint about another admin, and no one mentioned it as an issue those times- so why is it an issue now? This reads more as piling on things to try to win a case that you're presenting of hidden motives.

I really hope the staff team reads this post and truly understands it rather than skimming it. I retired a long time ago, but I was an admin for years. I dealt with things like this for years. I've been active in discord for years, even when I wasn't actively playing. This is just fucking disappointing. I would expect better.

[Nik707]

I'd like to also add that a PR was testmerged after this issue so clearly it's not a matter of "nonissue" as evidenced by this.

Also just to cite my claim that this isn't the first and shouldn't be the last-

Staff Putnam complaint on Staff Xantholne: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4437
Staff HeroWithYay complaint on Staff Troijan_Coyote : viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4446
Maintainer TimothyTeakettle complaint on Staff Bluerose: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4533
Staff Redtail complaint on staff Trojan: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4431

I can go on but this is just the first page.

[Monara]

I'd like to note that not both players involved were/are 'cool' with it, as Nicc had seemingly interpreted. ONE of them doesn't *mind* if they themselves were 'exposed' as they put it, and felt the forum post was a good gesture to their privacy.

The *OTHER* player was extremely upset that this had happened, and was entirely supportive of the forum post and the effort to further protect player privacy. I quoted them directly before and made reference to their blatant disgust, but it seems to be ignored or unnoticed in most responses for one reason or another.

Also attaching messages in my private discord ticket where a host and headmin told me to make a forum post. This was not created with the intent of making this scene public, so much as it was to put it in an area where it wasn't being derailed by the reported admin even after other staff told them to stop.

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[mouseofthecake]

What the fuck, dude.

No, I mean it, the admin’s ability to see subtler/anti-ghost messages should be limited even further if THIS is how one of our admins, who’s been solid in the past, is going to act when seeing it. Mouse clearly forgot his place in this, and trying to deflect it doesn’t change the fact that you’ve exposed that admins can just freely comment on these scenes, let alone reposting them in fucking admin chat.

Sort your shit out.

I've exposed anything? If this had been dealt with internally, it would've been handled in an hour, and none of this would have happened. Monara is to blame for making it a public issue. Don't let your sensibilities get in the way of me handling a legitimate concern as privately as I could.

[mouseofthecake]

No longer admin man with lots of experience and somehow is still admin on forum opinion coming in hot as fuck right now so get your seatbelts ready.

I see literally no excuse for how this is handled, and the ones suggested are iffy at best. There has been constant debate regarding admins seeing subtler text, with the majority of players I've seen being against it, because they feel that it's an unneeded breach of their privacy for a minor concern. Some of the excuses I've seen here are laughable, at best. I'll go through just a few I remember, and I can't be fucked to quote people so meh.

IRT: Previous "shitstorms"
My brothers in the Lord's Land, the last 'noncon drama' of any real note was literally years ago. There hasn't been any serious noncon drama of any note in so long, I can't even recall the last one. If you're unironically worried about drama reoccuring years later to the level that you're going to act in this manner, you really need to learn to let things go and give some trust to the players. That's ridiculous.

IRT: Copying the post was easier than naming.
This isn't even an excuse, it's so stupid I don't understand why someone would think this is realistic. Bro how does it take you longer to type a name than to copy a paragraph in our janky textbox. Yes, it's true any admin COULD have just gone and checked logs, but there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to copy a post verbatim. The admins in a-say didn't need this information to make an opinion, and it had no bearing on the situation. Just.. don't do this. Ever.

IRT: Concerns about in-round implications/Subtler isn't an excuse
My Brother in the Light of the Glorious Allah.
This is the definition of an IC-Issue. If they were dumb enough to get caught, that's on them and we should TRUST OUR PLAYERS to handle it IC before we start sweating bullets in a-say and copying posts and babysitting them in ghost. They were in an area with restricted access to which no one else was able to enter. And this meme about "oh just cus subtler doesn't mean you can lol" Bro I was an admin for fucking years and we constantly saw people subtle-ERPing in bars in the corner. You know what we did? Literally nothing but maybe had a slight chuckle at the absurdity and then did nothing. Never have I ever seen someone actually do anything to enforce subtler being used in "realistic" ways and I would love any fucking example of when this was done so I can laugh at it for being an absurd waste of everyone's time.

And a final note. Jay, an admin has absolutely no place to bring out personal accusations of some weird vendetta in a public thread like this. You're literally undermining the entire staff team by making this weird, unfounded accusation while claiming that no one else would get this level of heat for it. You are literally complaining about something you yourself are doing in your post, and it's just a really shit look to be mad something was brought public while also doing that same thing with weird accusations that undermine your entire teams cohesion. The fact that two specific admins didn't find problem with it in the moment has absolutely no bearing on whether or not this situation is worthy of concern and possible reprimand, and I think it's hilarious that it'd be used as an excuse. I can outright say that the RP staff team is probably the least cohesive team I've ever really worked with, and no one seems to have a strong desire to work on that. Every time there was a decision to be made, the discussion would always start with people on VERY far ends of the argument which eventually had to be settled somewhere in the middle. The Staff team is far from a monolith, and 2 staff not seeing an issue with something is far from evidence to anyone's point or even worth noting in any capacity. If anything, your last point is right- those two staff members should to some degree fall on the sword too for not seeing this as an issue, and anyone on staff who actually has no issue here should probably stop and reassess with player desires in mind, because I should remind you, the last time this came up the majority of players I personally saw were all for restricting admins from seeing subtler unless they used specific log diving tools, which are themselves logged. The player's involved opinions are IMPORTANT, but not entirely relevant to the problem of mishandling of in round, sensitive information. Just because these two might be cool, the next two very much may NOT be. Your speculations on Monara's ultimate "goals" are based on evidence you say you can't share, which means it doesn't exist for the purposes of this thread, and it shouldn't be brought up. I won't go into that again, though. I COMPLETELY fail to understand this idea that this should have been handled privately. Can anyone explain to me why a PLAYER has to take this route of a forum complaint on an issue with an admin or other player, but somehow admins should be expected not to take these same routes as players? Why are admins special in this? They certainly shouldn't be, and this is *NOT* the first time an admin has made a forum complaint about another admin, and no one mentioned it as an issue those times- so why is it an issue now? This reads more as piling on things to try to win a case that you're presenting of hidden motives.

I really hope the staff team reads this post and truly understands it rather than skimming it. I retired a long time ago, but I was an admin for years. I dealt with things like this for years. I've been active in discord for years, even when I wasn't actively playing. This is just fucking disappointing. I would expect better.

You haven't said anything I or another admin hasn't covered before. Please read up, as I'm getting sick of repeating myself. As for Monara acting in bad faith, they've literally accused me of masturbating to posting an emote in asay, and condemned me for hising my ghost sprite of all things. This js very clearly blatant character assassination for something that couldve been handled with a single polite request, and is knstead being overblown to remove me, as Monara has explicitly mentioned in the Discord they would like to even before this incident.

[mouseofthecake]

I'd like to note that not both players involved were/are 'cool' with it, as Nicc had seemingly interpreted. ONE of them doesn't *mind* if they themselves were 'exposed' as they put it, and felt the forum post was a good gesture to their privacy.

The *OTHER* player was extremely upset that this had happened, and was entirely supportive of the forum post and the effort to further protect player privacy. I quoted them directly before and made reference to their blatant disgust, but it seems to be ignored or unnoticed in most responses for one reason or another.

Also attaching messages in my private discord ticket where a host and headmin told me to make a forum post. This was not created with the intent of making this scene public, so much as it was to put it in an area where it wasn't being derailed by the reported admin even after other staff told them to stop.

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I already apologized to both of them, and given how you clearly can't act professionally, I really don't care for however you explained things to them to purposefully demonize me. One of them even immediately recognized that you were acting on personal feelings and sensibilities rather than an actual interest in maintaining the rules, none of which were broken here to any extent. This whole thing is overblown as an act to get an inactive admin removed, which you've clearly stated on Discord multiple times now.

[SpessInquisitor]

What the fuck, dude.

No, I mean it, the admin’s ability to see subtler/anti-ghost messages should be limited even further if THIS is how one of our admins, who’s been solid in the past, is going to act when seeing it. Mouse clearly forgot his place in this, and trying to deflect it doesn’t change the fact that you’ve exposed that admins can just freely comment on these scenes, let alone reposting them in fucking admin chat.

Sort your shit out.

I've exposed anything? If this had been dealt with internally, it would've been handled in an hour, and none of this would have happened. Monara is to blame for making it a public issue. Don't let your sensibilities get in the way of me handling a legitimate concern as privately as I could.

I had written up a whole thing but, I lost it.

I apologize for my prior post, and I’m glad this is being handled privately. Please be more active and careful about this sort of thing in the future, and I’ll try to be more aware of when somebody’s trying to stir the pot for no good reason.

[mouseofthecake]

What the fuck, dude.

No, I mean it, the admin’s ability to see subtler/anti-ghost messages should be limited even further if THIS is how one of our admins, who’s been solid in the past, is going to act when seeing it. Mouse clearly forgot his place in this, and trying to deflect it doesn’t change the fact that you’ve exposed that admins can just freely comment on these scenes, let alone reposting them in fucking admin chat.

Sort your shit out.

I've exposed anything? If this had been dealt with internally, it would've been handled in an hour, and none of this would have happened. Monara is to blame for making it a public issue. Don't let your sensibilities get in the way of me handling a legitimate concern as privately as I could.

I had written up a whole thing but, I lost it.

I apologize for my prior post, and I’m glad this is being handled privately. Please be more active and careful about this sort of thing in the future, and I’ll try to be more aware of when somebody’s trying to stir the pot for no good reason.

I too keep losing paraposts. These forums really hate mobile.

And, thanks. While I can't say the topic is private now, given everything, I did at least apologize to both involved parties and am committed to protecting their privacy in all this.