[Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Trojan_Coyote
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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Trojan_Coyote »

Krzyzstof_K wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:26 pm
@Trojan

I'm sorry but I'm beginning to have my patience tested with you telling people to stop arguing by arguing and linking entire posts just to say, "This tbh". Please consider writing your own formal response on the matter instead of plagiarizing.
Yeah so, I'm definitely going to tell people to stay on topic in a discussion as clogging up the forum with unrelated things is annoying to most parties that come to read things.
As to why I've been quoting entire posts, I'm not at home and therefore have been doing this on my phone.
The reason I did the equivalent of 'this tbh' is again, due to me being on my phone and largely unable to format a response. It's a bit odd that you're attacking me over agreeing with someone that I don't think this ban is particularly justified.

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Trojan_Coyote »

getsomesleepv2 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:48 pm
PS R0-Acid when you actually address this above fact I will stop posting. Stop acting like a sperg and posting paragraphs of text like you're a lawyer overseeing Chris Chan's incest case.
Stop spamming the replies please.

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Krzyzstof_K
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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Krzyzstof_K »

Trojan_Coyote wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:16 pm
Krzyzstof_K wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:26 pm
@Trojan

I'm sorry but I'm beginning to have my patience tested with you telling people to stop arguing by arguing and linking entire posts just to say, "This tbh". Please consider writing your own formal response on the matter instead of plagiarizing.
Yeah so, I'm definitely going to tell people to stay on topic in a discussion as clogging up the forum with unrelated things is annoying to most parties that come to read things.
As to why I've been quoting entire posts, I'm not at home and therefore have been doing this on my phone.
The reason I did the equivalent of 'this tbh' is again, due to me being on my phone and largely unable to format a response. It's a bit odd that you're attacking me over agreeing with someone that I don't think this ban is particularly justified.
And how does "this tbh", even remotely say that when you've linked an entire post...?

The problem is the rules are awfully written and, you do see that mindles here is rule lawyering right?

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Ragolution »

getsomesleepv2 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:38 pm
Back in my day mother fuckers used to eat each other in the bar with an audience
I'll say it again; I miss when Citadel was gross. But not that gross.
If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything.

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Trojan_Coyote »

Krzyzstof_K wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:21 pm

And how does "this tbh", even remotely say that when you've linked an entire post...?

The problem is the rules are awfully written and, you do see that mindles here is rule lawyering right?
Until that last post, I didn't know how to not link an entire post on mobile. I'm not going to stop mindles from posting their arguments on this forum as they are involved, even if I believe that this ban was not a good ban.

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Silicons »

I'm going to reply to one of the threads instead of both because this is basically the same case and because I'd rather not type two up since it's tiring enough with Raiq ban evading 5 times to throw popcorn at the onlookers.

There's a few things to address.
- There's very few times where applying a ban, much less a permanent ban, before an adminhelp ticket is open is the right course of action. It's not the case here.
- Von's previous note history is usually being too much of a "raging gamer" (see: basically can be summarized as 'killing people unnecessarily'). Von's recent incident prior is not to me a good example of a violation regarding public ERP rules and super related to this specific case. It's an example of behavior but as long as the two parties have rectified this I'm willing to call it a day regarding that.
- I worded the rule regarding ERP and sexual content https://citadel-station.net/wikimain/in ... al_Content very strongly because I don't want rules lawyering in the other direction. In reality, there's a nuance towards enforcement towards public ERP (duh). The thing to take note is that
- This is citadel
- You will be exposed to people flirting with each other in sexual ways whether in person or over the radio
- If it gets to be too much, you're obviously allowed to ask them to stop whether IC or over LOOC (the latter usually if it's explicit enough this is warranted and enforcable by administration)
- Obviously we don't have a list of kinks that admins will ask people to move for which is why,
- It's usually seeing who's good and bad faith about this rather than exactly what they did. The times people are actually going to get in trouble for this is usually when they're going out of their way to more or less weaponize their fetish to be obnoxious to other players.
In the screenshot chain I don't see anything too obviously ERPy leading up to the comment. It's cheesy sexual pick up lines. If y'all wanted to get in a fight in it ICly that'd honestly be fine by me but here's, the other thing
- Von knows they've been involved in too many incidents as of late. I'm not sure why "first of all, go fuck yourself" is a good response here. It doesn't matter how much some player annoyed you in the past, if you appear like a dick in the present to them when they aren't actively metagrudging you in current day, you will look like the bad guy, no matter what. Almost no one is going to look at that string of screenshots and disagree that this is unbecoming conduct there.
- Going further with, paraphrased, "we will start talking about fetishes to annoy you" is quite literally weaponizing your fetish to be obnoxious, which is far, far more unacceptable than cheesy pick-up lines.

I'm not going to say this didn't deserve a punishment, because frankly, this is a down abhorrent response to someone telling you to leave. Even if that person personally pisses you off. That said, this did deserve a ticket at the very least before we had to come onto the forums and have 50 unrelated people pile on with their opinions along with banned players coming back from the dead to shit on the server for their own enjoyment. The only time a situation doesn't is when it's clear cut griefing on the tier of "this person is attacking everyone wordlessly" and even then we tend to ask first.

It could have been perfectly reasonable to say something along the lines of "No, we're just flirting". Even being a bit rude about it is alright. The way you responded isn't and is going to polarize a lot of people who look at the case against you. I'm not even remembering what Snowdragon did in the past (or rather it's not relevant to me now because I have had my own run ins with them in the past too, funny you all mention that), but it's not particularly super relevant in the now. The same way I don't think Von's prior note history is super relevant for this because it's unrelated, other than perhaps Von not taking a hint to be less toxic and volatile on purpose, even as a response.

All in all
- I personally wouldn't leave this ban at a perma. It should be a good time to remind to everyone involved to respond to these things in a nicer way (or at least in a way that isn't shitty enough that it'd be bad if we didn't do something about it from an administrative perspective and could allow it to feasibly be resolved IC, especially with the connotations of who Von is as a player and the reputation that they have built themselves on the server). This would probably be a day at most if I did it but then again I'm very much on the lenient side of the admin spectrum so there's that.
- It regardless stands as a valid administrative action because frankly I'm not here to defend telling people to fuck off and threatening to make them uncomfortable on purpose in retaliation either. That's shitty, and someone who's been playing here for so long should know this.
- I'll regardless leave R0 to make the closing statement if they'd like to because they were actually here for more of the incident, and I've just finished parsing the initial post, banning reason, a few posts from Teak and Lolli and R0's, and some logs. I'm not even going to go into the string of unnecessary posts down below because I frankly have made up my mind on this through that alone. Ban appeals isn't a place for literally everyone to cluster up and argue about the semantics of the ERP standards rule. IF you'd like to do that, you know where to find me, on the actual discord, in staff forums, if you want to push some feedback regarding current rules which is at the end of the day my problem.

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Snowdragon01 »

Is it really shoving it down said persons throat? We were minding our own business, as everyone usually does. Requested sure if it got to that point, but awfully crude at best. Did we actually do anything sexual? No, so I'd say request fulfilled at the expense of offending the other party. Again, through this almost hour long shift, Amber could've left at any which point to leave and spare himself from stuff he did not want to overhear. He was researching at a console, not doing any robotics work. This is intentionally just him sitting around to snark back at the situation for unknown reasons, and motive. But guessing we're here you can connect the dots yourself considering the banning admin themself did this wordlessly. There's without a doubt motive to this case.
Some of this was briefly mentioned in the support ticket but I'll go into further detail. Every shift I usually go to my work place (if not assistant) and determine what to do that shift. This whole situation just generated a lot of anxiety. Mind clouded, couldn't think and nastily telling me those things made it worse. I also believed I didn't have to and that the rules were covering me here.
The support ticket was created to see what to do in this situation (If I was right, to leave, it's not an issue and ect) and to report what had happened. I have no control over who handles a ticket in discord. Teak wasn't event he first one that responded it was MrJwhit. That right there should end the suspicion of meta grudge. As I've said before I don't even remember who these players are even when reminded. I still don't know their names and have to refer to the support ticket to find out.
The whole intention of this was not to see someone get permanently banned and I support the ban to be removed. There was some lying in this topic that for a moment changed my mind but after reading all of the other comments I agree for both to be unabnned.
Amber Reesh (Mindles) if I STAND correct, has been banned previously for metagrudging the same literal person who's been banned here, with an appeal documenting this. So do not think them saying they do not know the either of us because this is just a blatant lie and I really cannot stand this anymore. It took me some time after hearing about this and confirming it. This is genuinely just a terrible rock throwing contest, and I'm shocked why this hasn't been spotted yet, if this doesn't prove motive, I don't know what will considering they claim they do not know them or me. They've certainly asked my discord ID on discord, which eventually I had said hi, this is me, so yes, they do know the both of us.
At one point I may have known one of you but that doesn't mean I still do. I don't remember what my last ban was even about let alone the people involved in it. There is also the fact I go by "Forgive and forget" and have for a while. Life is to short to hold grudges against anyone.
Not sure what else to say. I literally don't have control over who views a ticket and have no clue what admins are really online or away as discord doesn't really tell that. Teak wasn't even the first one who responded it was someone else. This whole situation started with me being unsure if a rule applied here and wanting to know if it did (although this was never stated.) If I knew it was going to cause so much drama this would've never been posted.
I do not like coming here and diving into a messy battle of insults and wits. I do not want to spend my free time in a shitshow like this. To further prove my point of there was no metagrudge just unban these two so I don't have to visit this topic shitshow anymore.

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Ragolution »

I'm sorry to say it but I find it absolutely bass-ackwards that you'd punish someone OOCly (Ban, note, kick) for their actions in-character when responding to someone else in the same venue. This'd be a different story entirely, of course, if their lewd-oriented RP had gotten deeper into the sweaty pit, but I digress. Even if you're willing to say that the reply that the comment that was made ICly was OOCly motivated, it was still nothing more than an In-Character statement made when the player/character bristled at someone trying to police them, in-character. I understand that the response that was given was remarkably hostile, but how in the world are you going to punish a man for his character's reactions when they're no more than aggressive? On the one hand, I'm not willing or even interested in ignoring Von's history as a troublemaker (yes I said troublemaker) but I'm increasingly fretful that this is some kind of double standard.
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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Von Carstein »

This just keeps getting better and better, this is the most fun I have ever had on the Citadel forums.

I will say that, if this was someone else, there would be no ban, or even any sort of ticket. True shame I didn't get to save all this peanut posting, I could open a stall at the circus with all of these!

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Silicons wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:09 pm
- Von's previous note history is usually being too much of a "raging gamer" (see: basically can be summarized as 'killing people unnecessarily')
More like people cope about getting killed too often when they do something that gives me semi valid cause to robust them, and blame me instead of themselves for getting robusted in the first place. I will admit I am very lenient on the 'alright just shoot them' tactic but most of my note history is just pure salt, with the sprinkles of truth in it.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silicons wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:09 pm
- I personally wouldn't leave this ban at a perma. It should be a good time to remind to everyone involved to respond to these things in a nicer way (or at least in a way that isn't shitty enough that it'd be bad if we didn't do something about it from an administrative perspective and could allow it to feasibly be resolved IC, especially with the connotations of who Von is as a player and the reputation that they have built themselves on the server). This would probably be a day at most if I did it but then again I'm very much on the lenient side of the admin spectrum so there's that.
- It regardless stands as a valid administrative action because frankly I'm not here to defend telling people to fuck off and threatening to make them uncomfortable on purpose in retaliation either. That's shitty, and someone who's been playing here for so long should know this.
R0 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:15 pm
But, again, the way you responded to what they said was god-awful. From what I can see, I can’t understand how you thought that was an appropriate response to their request and, unless you’ve got a real good reason not captured in those logs, I don’t want to see something like that again.
PERSONALLY, I think its a complete waste of my time to go out of my way and have a polite conversation with someone who has already admitted they super baby hate me because I beat them up so badly one time they decided to try and kill me and Nayser and then cried when they got beatup again the next round and left mid admin messaging when they got bwoinked for it, and got permabanned themself.

Unlike Snowdragon01 I never forgot it because I thought it was one of the funniest things to happen on Citadel, that being said I am not an unreasonable person and this specific conversation makes it look like I am just randomly taking the piss out of someone for no reason, they have a history specifically with me and my usual group of "metabuddies" and I just don't have the patience for them. Anyone else and I admit, I would have probably had a much more polite response for but why would I bother with someone I know it's already a waste of my time on.

Mindles has and always will be the same shitter from before, big whoop not surprised!

And as for the whole "Carstein you've literally played here longer then most of the admin staff, you know better then to go out of your way to purposefully antagonize people to make them upset!!"

Yeeaaahhh, probably. I have a habit of going out of my way explicitly to piss people off because I am a pointy eared gremlin who thinks its ultimate form of comedy.

You've already had my previous saying that I am actually working on it from last time so I won't bother to repeat it again needlessly, I'm aware of it. But responding to someone that way was mostly just inclined by my point of view, I wasn't doing anything but talking to someone I had been talking too even BEFORE he showed up to the shift, he walked in and then instantly dropped that which is why I told him to fuck off on the spot, everything else afterwards was just my usual way of talking to Kryzstof_K and not actually related to bothering them because I instantly disregarded them and went back to doing my own thing. He was just standing there looking at a console he could look at another one less then 10 tiles away if he didn't want to listen to the conversation, maybe he should have done that instead of deciding to stand in the same spot for an hour, but what do I know?

Regardless the decision to apply the ban was still garbage and I disagree with your statement on "valid administrative action"

Anyone else would have just maybe yelled at me and told me to stop being edgy about it. Teak however is explicitly mad about the time I killed him too, so he used it as an excuse to permaban me. (See how this is a coincidence between player and administrator? Mad funny)

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Re: [Timothytea] Von_Carstein - Dumb Ban Appeal

Post by Nayser »

Snowdragon01 wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:52 pm
Mind clouded, couldn't think and nastily telling me those things made it worse.
"Cheese... d-driping around the edges? Could t-this be a sexual pun?", I muttered to my self as world began spinning and turning grey, I was covered in cold sweat and losing consciousness...

Okay sorry... but if this is not over-dramatisation and this is your genuine reaction to a couple innuendo jokes/implications you might wanna avoid servers like citadel and other simmiliar +18 servers. There will be a lot more of this and not coming from Von. People can be very explicit.

There is a strict line between IC and OOC. What you're told in character is told by some one's character to your character. What is told in LOOC is told by YOU and people talking to you in LOOC. I would honestly understand why there would be action needed if it was LOOC. But huge problem here is that neither of you talked in LOOC. Your request for them to leave would be taken more seriously and you wouldn't be outright told to fuck off, at least because there are rules for that in place.

Request IC is request of your character. Request LOOC is your request. I feel like everyone should be understanding that but not everyone seems to, going as far as even some admins don't get it. If you want some one else to stop something and talk IC'ly it is easy to confuse it just for roleplaying.

In conclusion the ban happened because people fail to see the fine line between "my character speaks" and "i speak". I also don't understand why this is still going and people aren't unbanned, it feels like 90% of people here agreed ban was at the very least too much. So why is staff so hesitant to unban? Why did it take so little time and effort into investigation/talking (aka none) to apply such harsh punnishment?

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