[NicoDeimos] R3dtaile - Note appeal for powergaming

[Redtail]

BYOND account and character name: R3dtaile Chase Redtail
Banning admin: NicoDeimos
Note
Note reason: As HOS had recovered the body of a "friendly" nightmare who in their words left the assigned area and harvested the organs to have implanted in themselves despite the shift having settled down with no active threats. Warned for powergaming.

Your side of the story: In all my time of playing, and adminning, I have /never/ seen someone getting bwoinked over using demon organs. I think this note is incredibly unfair due the fact that the effects the organs bestow AREN’T that major.

The eyes: Replicable with night vision goggles. Night vision goggles don’t even need a second person to undergo surgery with. Night vision goggles bestow just as much night vision as demon eyes, barring the fact that demon eyes are brighter, with adjustable light levels.

The heart: No real comparison here, barring a changeling’s arm blade, the dark blessing, or the bone blade from xenobio I think? Doesn’t require a second person to operate on, and is a usable item. Gives the light eater, a not super dangerous arm blade that destroys lights. It cannot be dropped, and is unremoveable besides surgery and …potentially cloning, of course?

Nightmares are a somewhat-rare mid-round antag with no objectives. They quite often wind up hunted by almost everyone, because of the fact they can fuck up APCs and often destroy all lights (if not being outright hostile to crew members aboard the station). Then after their death they tyupically wind up butchered with their organs given to the victor/those who want them. If they were of significant power level, yeah I can absolutely understand them being considered power gaming. However, at this point I can’t fathom these organs being considered powergaming, because of how minute they actually are. One of them is easily replicable, and the other is simply for aesthetics and is much more of a burden due to it occupying a handslot.
The two items in particular are NOT that powerful compared to a lot of other things. Sure, if you wind up sharpening the arm blade , it’s pretty major then , but that’s a rarity unless you’re the chef.
From an admin’s view, I don’t think this is fair at all , as I’ve not seen, or heard of, people being bwoinked for nightmare organs, and nightmares are pretty common all in all.

[Cross]

I agree with this appeal.
The notion that nightmare organs can be considered powergaming is downright hypocritical when you consider that for miners, it is near standard practice to have organs from alien queens implanted for shits and giggles, without any problems at all.

[Cygnet]

+1 in support of removing an unnecessary and unfair Note. Seems to be a theme lately.

[kevinz000]

the way i see this
it's either alright to put organs in yourself for no reason just to have them
or it's not.

as of right now, it appears no one gives a single shit about xenomorph organs being used outside of need (see: needing advantage against something for a legitimate reason).
so i don't see why we should care about nightmare organs out of the blue.
+1

if we're making the step to not allowing implanting antagonist-sourced/themed organs/implants/whatever we can, but i don't think chase should be noted for something that you'd honestly think is alright with how people usually act.

[Trojan_Coyote]

Personally I've always spoken against organs fnr.

[Soranayo]

As an ex staff-member, i'm not sure how much my voice weight in this appeal but i'm still gonna throw it out there, since i was on the latter part of the round as a borgo.

When i was first built i was told about a nightmare being friendly and given it's own area to roam about, which they left later in the shift, dying in a remote area by themselves.

Not only that they didn't even hunt for the organs by actively chasing the nightmare, and just found them dead because they broke their own word and got themselves killed, but i'd also argue that getting said organs implanted are a straight -downgrade- for sec officers and HOS, being mostly a cosmetic change at that point, since you can already get night vision goggles and it does the job better than the demon eyes, and losing a hand isn't really worth a light eater for a sec off. When you add that to what Kevin already said about miners and xeno organs, and nobody caring for it, i'd argue this note is a bit out of place indeed.
I actively support this appeal. +1 from me.

[NicoDeimos]

In this scenario you rushed the corpse to harvest and implant the organs for yourself just to have them. The threats to the station had long since past and the shift had become entirely calm, so it wasn't an emergency situation. When I mentioned those exact equipment alternatives to the organs in the ticket, you responded by saying there was no alternative to the heart which told me you wanted the items for the uniqueness. When another admin asked if there was any downside to the organs you said then as you say now that the light eater has the biggest downside, and at the time of the incident you chose not to have the light eater specifically because of the downside which told me you were making a conscious decision to avoid negative effects min-maxing what powers and abilities you did gain.

The inconsistencies regarding how the power game rule is rarely if ever enforced toward organs is something worth discussing and I was made aware these will be addressed among staff at some point. The comparison to mining power game is incomparable as mining's issues are endemic of its own issues and the fact that much of its game play and player mindset revolves around the loot (unfortunately). The idea that an antag to someone playing as security is meant to be a loot pinata sounds like a very power gamey attitude to have. "A nightmare's organs are meant to be a trophy for defeating a potentially powerful antag" but it wasn't even defeated per se, so what then is the "trophy" for?

Finally I want to make it clear Chase that I've always considered you one of the most level-headed staff as well as security mains so some of your recent behavior is surprising. I'm taking a hard-line stance on this because you were playing a head role which we should be holding to higher standards, but most importantly because you are an admin. You are meant to be held to the utmost accountability for your actions and as a leader in this community should be setting a better example for the players to follow.

I maintain my position of having the note stick and will be kicking this appeal up to headmins to decide. As I mentioned before if they decide my noting was wrong I will learn from my mistake and adjust how I approach similar situations accordingly.

[Trojan_Coyote]

Tbh I'm with Nico. Implanting organs in general fnr is powergaming, moreso if you're picking and choosing for upsides vs downsides. in this instance I'm in favor of the note staying in place. -1

[Redtail]

But I had both organs though? I know for a fact I had the eyes and the heart. So, I don’t know where you’re getting the “chose not to have the light eater” when I literally had the light eater. And there’s hardly inconsistencies about it , when there’s ZERO bwoinking for it, the fact I was bwoinked over having the nightmare organs is itself an inconsistency to the norm I’ve witnessed in my five months of adminning. And I’ve adminned A LOT. I’ve observed a lot, and played a lot, and believe your bwoink for it was in the wrong (hence the appeal of course)

Maybe my ‘recent behavior’ based on this note is because I feel so wrongly treated by it. I maintain my position that this note is completely unjust, and would love a headmin’s opinion on it. I’ve ranted about this note to several people, and sure they’re not admins, and Sora’s ex-staff, so sure their opinions don’t mean /much/ in regards to here, but it’s at least something.

[Redtail]

Tbh I'm with Nico. Implanting organs in general fnr is powergaming, moreso if you're picking and choosing for upsides vs downsides. Not sure if it's something to do with nightmares since you seem to want to be one a lot of the time but in this instance I'm in favor of the ban staying in place. -1

It's not a ban. And it was a decision literally done based on aesthetics since nightmare organs aren't great like I've said before.