[MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Nethaufer
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by Nethaufer »

File a proper appeal for the note in the required forum. Notes are standard and as long as they aren't entirely inaccurate or misrepresenting the situation, they are not likely to be overturned.

Nik707
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by Nik707 »

Notes aren't "escalation." They're a record of past events that required admin intervention. I leave notes all the time that are just a recap of an issue that required my attention. Appealing a note is for when a note is inaccurate, not when you think it's bad. It's not up to you what we do or don't believe is something worthy of recording. We, as admins, do. Notes aren't a punishment. It's a record.

kevinz000
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by kevinz000 »

emotions are probably really high right now for all involved but my take on this is:

if xekov doesn't want to get syringed
he shouldn't have used a syringe gun himself, especially with a bad chemical, even if teak did it back to him a bit later instead of instantly. whether or not either of them should have been in chemistry.
i'd compare this to shotgunning someone and being surprised when you get shotgunned back 10 minutes later.

plus, i do not agree with any sentiments whether real or assumed that something like this should be ahelp-and-respond-later by default. having to adminhelp things like this ruins the spontaneity and organic conflict of the game.

kevinz000
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by kevinz000 »

also i think it's a good time to address the "notes are not a punishment"
let me bring up three hypotheticals

"this person accidently let out the tesla using x y z and i informed them to not do that and how to not do that"

"warned for doing x y z" (the closest thing to the note this complaint is about)

"do x y z the next time they do this thing they were told not to do"

which ones are punishments to you because to me it's the latter two. notes aren't a physical punishment themselves (you are not banned from playing any specific role or locked from anything/sanctioned against) but they absolutely do impact potential future punishments and saying they're not a punishment at all gives the wrong idea even if it is technically true (and only if you define punishment as a hard measurable sanction like a ban or jobban, so not really true at all imo).

kevinz000
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by kevinz000 »

plus, i may add, although the clause of note appeals was they are appealable if they are either entirely inaccurate or misrepresenting, they should absolutely be valid to appeal in cases of "warned for this behavior" if the behavior is determined to not be against the rules, for the reasons said above.

the only thing you have to gain from not allowing as such is less headaches from the occasional invalid appeal because you can block it with that reason, and what you lose is bad calls being allowed to stand because of it.

FoxyStalin
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by FoxyStalin »

I agree with Kevinz here.
This is an IC issue that had IC escalation.

Assistant broke into somewhere another assistant was
Assistant 2 tells them to fuck off
Assistant 1 doesn't
Assistant 2 shoots them to disability and throws them out
1 comes back later for revenge
2 Defends himself
This fight escalates until one kills another.

MrJWhit
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by MrJWhit »

So, I'm not fully positive how I feel about this, and I don't think that I ever will know how to properly feel about this situation, so instead of giving blind judgement on any side, I'm just going to explain my thoughts. Also I'm getting tired and get weird when I'm tired.


I do want to start off by talking about notes, and what I feel the issue is with notes.
Most of the time what happens with notes is, a player does something bad gets told "Hey, don't do X again" or "Be more careful about doing X" after they mess up something, and then there's a note attached from the admin saying what happened. There is no physical punishment by timeouts, or jobbans, or antag bans, or anything else along the stick measure that an administrator can do. As an admin, it's not really a "punishment" because nothing happened from an admin side, the player was just warned to not do it again. But from the player perspective, they were given a strike and a slap on the wrist with heavier punishment implied.

Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong, there's no getting around this. It's an issue with how people view power and using power.
What I feel is important to focus on is how the other side perceives the situation of "just giving a note". Be reasonable, be honest, be polite, and trust should go with it if the other person is giving the same effort. There isn't an easy solution.

This is probably obvious to everyone involved, but any random observers reading this who hasn't played SS13 for years won't realize this.


Next, the actual call itself.
I'm sort of confused what actually started the fight, was it just a fight because teak was hogging the chem dispenser or something? There's two dispensers and everything, there's plenty of space for both of you to play in the sandbox together. If it was a power issue, like, really? There's a billion better options than just blasting someone with a syringe gun. That's more of a xekov question though.

The second confused bit I have is how long did it take for teak to make the (presumably) death syringe, and then fight for the second time. An immediate "Oh fuck no" toolboxing I understand, but going away for a bit and then coming back with a weapon is always a weird response.
Demanding people ahelp over every situation, or get smacked instead of just handling it yourself always is weird to me. Complaining about someone doing something bad after the round? Yeah they should have said something earlier to an admin. But a consensual fight between two people? Eh whatever, it's a game and people haven't been having enough combat recently.

I guess talking it over to myself is that I feel like teak/timothy was in the right in this, unless xekov comes along and drops a bunch of new information, or someone dug through the logs and found something wildly different from what everyone else is saying.

Also, wew I talk a lot when I'm tired.

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Ragolution
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by Ragolution »

I think this should be approached more like premeditated murder in response to an aggravated assault; One person made a thoughtless attack, the other put major thought in and performed acts specifically intended to end the other person's life. In the cast of a court of law, you would be 100% at fault, Teak.

That said, when it comes to SS13, when you shoot at someone, you often need to accept the fact that they're, more than likely, going to shoot back. I, personally, don't find it acceptable that even one of you elected to use a syringe gun to shoot at the other because of some tiff over chemistry desk space. The fact that you responded in kind only drags you down to their level, nevermind the aspect of premeditation.

To the topic at hand: I believe this situation could have been handled better, yes. But the outcome would've been the same, granted that I know I would've noted you as well. If you've ever been in a car ride with a sibling, 'he kicked me first' doesn't make mom like your kicking your brother any more than your brother kicking you. There was a time when syringe guns used to be signature weapons for powergamers who'd needle anyone in eyesight with chloral hydrate, arsenic or something weird.

The stunning fact is that I believe Xekov should've been given more than just a note in response. There's a thousand things above 'shoot guy with syringes' on my little mental list of 'try to fix something'. But that's just me, yeah?
Never stop experiencing new things. The day you do, you've died.

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HazelBailey
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Re: [MAIN] NicoDeimos - poor handling of ahelp situation

Post by HazelBailey »

Alright, I've taken enough time to think about this and I'm gonna say that I overall think Nicodeimos handled the ticket well enough. I personally would've handed Xekov a short ban, but other than that, I agree with the basics of how he handled the situation, that being giving you a note. Yes, he did syringe gun you first, but he also dragged you out of chemistry and got you back on your feet right after. That does not excuse him immediately jumping to syringe guns, but I personally do not believe that gives you the go ahead to walk away from the situation, and then come back twenty minutes later with full intention of killing. A lot of time passed between both incidents, and given it's a video game, it should have stopped there or been taken to security instead. If you believe another's actions may be breaking the rules, then ahelp it, but that does not give you the right to break those same rules in retaliation.

With that, I'm gonna move your complaint to resolved. I do not believe the admin in question needs any action taken against them at this time.

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